The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

[bearcuborg]

I know people like to mock the more starfucker-y aspects of Bogdanovich, but how can you not love every one of those stories hearthesilence relayed?

I never got that disdain for him on this board, and found his own thread title to be pretty demeaning. I’ve met him twice and have two books signed, he’s a very charming man.

All the stories hearthesilence shares are in the documentary, so we can all enjoy that when it comes out.

One that Peter shared, that’s not in the movie or shared in hearthesilence’s previous post, is that Orson was very patient with actors, and he made them feel like they couldn’t do any wrong, even if he wanted them to do something differently, unlike someone like Preminger who once shouted at Jean Seberg, “RELAX!!!”

[domino harvey]

It helps that most of the anti-Bogdanovich crew doesn't post here anymore. I think my reputation as the local Bogdanovich booster makes me less than impartial, but of course he's great and I've always thought so

[hearthesilence]

Thanks all! Didn't realize you were there bearcuborg, and I actually found out via social media that several other people I knew were there too. Alice Tully Hall is my favorite venue to see films in NYC, but it's so big, it's easy to see why it doubles as a concert venue.

I actually didn't see the documentary, nor did I have an advance ticket for The Other Side of the Wind, which is the main reason why I missed the doc - I had to get in the standby line before it built up. From my experience, if you line up for standby, you should be able to get in if you're among the first dozen (maybe even twenty). I think this is because the festival gives a generous allotment of tickets to those involved in any given film, just to make sure everyone is taken care of, so there's always leftovers once the final tally is in. It's just a crapshoot in terms of where you sit. What was nice about this film was that quite a few people came up and sold singles to people in line (usually a leftover from whatever batch they bought), and in my case, someone actually had a pair and sold them both to me and my friend for the discounted member price.

[dustybooks]

All I remember about the board’s old anti-Bogdanovich sentiment is that someone here once said “he should be in jail” which struck me as such a hilariously over-the-top remark that it’s remained in my regular repertoire of insults ever since

[albucat]

My understanding from the IndieGoGo campaign was that TOSOTW was only getting a physical release for backers, but hopefully they expand from there.

Is there a great edition of The Fountain of Youth or Portrait of Gina available that I'm unaware of?

[NABOB OF NOWHERE]

My understanding from the IndieGoGo campaign was that TOSOTW was only getting a physical release for backers, but hopefully they expand from there.

A propos of this are there any backers out there who have had communication about the DVD? I wrote to Indiego-go a couple of times and never got a reply Perhaps I'm sending to the wrong place?

[albucat]

I got kind of half a response by sending a twitter message to Rymsza. He never answered about the DVDs/Blu-rays, but he said all the other perks had been distributed, and seemed pretty conscious of the campaign still. I suspect nothing will happen until after it's out on Netflix, unfortunately.

[Roger Ryan]

I got kind of half a response by sending a twitter message to Rymsza. He never answered about the DVDs/Blu-rays, but he said all the other perks had been distributed, and seemed pretty conscious of the campaign still. I suspect nothing will happen until after it's out on Netflix, unfortunately.

A recent answer (via Twitter) from Rymsza mentioned that a DVD or Blu-ray of TOSOTW will still be sent to backers of the Indiegogo campaign, but would not happen until after the film premiers on Netflix (Nov. 2nd). As to The Trial, a decent Blu-ray was released in France about four years ago and it's that transfer which played recently on TCM. There is definitely room for improvement with the transfer which has some weak spots and, unfortunately, superimposes credits over the final shot which don't sync up properly with Welles narrating the credits.

[DRW.mov]

I attended a screening of TOSOTW earlier this week at USC, and in the Q&A the producers, Frank Marshall and Filip Rymsza, stated that they are already working on creating special feature elements for a planning physical “special edition” release, they specifically mentioned making something out of the hours outtakes including hours of onset interviews with Chabrol, Hopper, Bogdanovich, etc. They stated that doing a lavish physical release is very important to them and that Netflix has given them essentially a carte blanche in terms of physical and theatrical distribution. A 35mm print has been struck and is touring and 4 more are on their way and the film will be exhibited on 35mm wherever applicable. Marshall and Rymsza appear to be far from finished getting this film the full release expected of it and I wouldn’t be too surprised if they’re able to bring it to disc via Criterion or Kino or someone of that caliber.

[albucat]

A lot of this is great news... they should really mention this to the people they, you know, promised a physical release to already.

[Fortisquince]

My dream is that TOSOTW is the masterpiece that I think it is and Netflix spends a ton of money to get it best picture and best director Academy Award nominations...assuming it gets a true theatrical release, of course, which I have to admit I’m not sure of.

[Roger Ryan]

My dream is that TOSOTW is the masterpiece that I think it is and Netflix spends a ton of money to get it best picture and best director Academy Award nominations...assuming it gets a true theatrical release, of course, which I have to admit I’m not sure of.

Netflix is already promoting it for award consideration, although I don't think the company is doing itself any favors by calling it an "unreleased film" in the synopsis!

[Fortisquince]

Wow, that synopsis is weak, but thanks for sending it along.

[mfunk9786]

Outside of wondering how many people are going to wake up to the Netflix menu screen after falling asleep during the first 10 or 15 minutes of this, it was every bit as great as the hype around it, if one is willing to submit themselves to the frenetic late Welles editing and shooting style. John Huston is in full Daniel Plainview mode here, he has so much scenery to chew and he doesn't leave a scrap behind. The film within a film is visually spectacular, due in no small part to its leering at Oja Kodar's constantly nude body - but there are excellent experimental late 60s-early 70s trappings there, and it feels as though it could have conceivably existed outside of this film, which is no small feat on Welles' part. The whole exercise spirals out of control in a fascinating way, with the film's troubling existential questions about the value of art filmmaking itself feeling genuinely fascinating and in no way dated or irrelevant - I could not believe how fresh this film felt, and how appropriate it seems to me that it did not see the light of day until now. As a rumination on the enduring value of this sort of art and the difficulty of completing it, it certainly seems conceivable that it would not be as great as it is (and it is great) were it not for the long and winding road that led us to its release. Life imitating art, and art imitating life.

[domino harvey]

Considering DDL based Plainview on Huston in Chinatown, does that just mean John Huston is in full John Huston mode?

[mfunk9786]

Oh for sure, it's absolutely circular. But there's one moment in particular in this film where Huston asks a nervous, nebbishy character to stand up and undress in front of everyone and it feels so much like the final scene of There Will Be Blood - it's a testament to how well Day-Lewis mimicked that manner of speech and persona, and also to how incredibly singular (and badass) Huston was

[Big Ben]

It was weird watching this. It's a film both out of time and both shockingly present and it's a film about a time gone by that's somehow shockingly present. Amidst all the bravado and mystique it's fascinating watching things spiral out of control. As Huston's character begins to break and the facade around all things Hollywood begin to break down things begin to get all the more prescient.

mfunk mentions a great scene above involving asking someone to remove their clothes but the real kicker for me was slightly before it:

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The schoolteacher has the audacity to insinuate that Huston's character is really gay and that all his macho man bravado is covering up for his vast insecurities. It's a raw moment and it undercuts a lot of what I feel the film is about, superficiality. Huston has plenty of scenes to chew on but when he finally begins to crack is when the film really begins to shine. It's all bullshit of course, but the cult of Huston's character lives on in spite of it.

I really like this film and I'm still sort of processing it but the one thing that nags at me is just how much of this Welles intended to be self insertion and how much of it is meant at some level to be pitch black satire. A great many things that Huston's character experiences are ones that Welles did as well and in one instance, explicitly so.

[david hare]

I regret to say I find the film a complete, unrelieved mess. Just a fucking mess.

I will refrain from going into more negativity out of respect for the incredible volume of money, time, care and hard grinding work everyone involed in the reconstruction has put into it. I know how personally invested Joe McBride for one has been and is in the project, so it seems best to me to keep my nose out of it.But to say I do not care for it at all.

I will raise one technical question here. I also raised it on social media but it can probably only be answered by a technical person. I watched it on reference standard Panasonic 4k display. with HDR. So we watched Netflix’ own 4K HDR standard broadcast. The image quality was superb, if light on grain which is consistent for Netflix 4K stuff. But in all, and I mean every single one of the B&W shots there is constant color banding, across the image. Sometimes light pink sometimes light green. It’s maddening. It looks like a chroma issue but is probably related to metadata in the encoding. Has anyone else seen this, in any format?

[Persona]

So, uh, this might be my second favorite Welles after The Trial.

Simply brilliant stuff, so dense and yet so clear at the same time (enormous props to the post-production team, my God, they knocked it way out of the park). Hypnotic and dizzying. The raw materials--you can feel their energy: it's insane in a way that only genius can be. The treatment of the footage is gorgeous. The editing team managed some level of coherence without losing that energy, at all. The sound team did exemplary work. The score by Legrand is the best score I've heard all year. The sum is something that is both deeply sad and viciously funny.

Wowzers.

[Drucker]

Just got back from 35mm and my initial thoughts are that this very much feels like a Welles film! Early energy, slow disillusionment, a mournful ending. Pacing-wise felt very in line with most of his work! I feel confident subsequent screenings will show it to be even richer, but if you're a Welles devotee there's a lot to love. That doesn't mean it's perfect. When they first introduce the film within a film, the movie comes to a screeching halt, and if it had been a minute or two longer I may have tapped out. But it picks back up. Going to sleep on it and wait for more posts, but I absolutely agree with the Touch of Evil references, especially considering how much one particular female character is clearly a stand-in for Dietrich.

[barryconvex]

There were parts of this that were just incredible, mostly the film within the film and more specifically Oja Kodar. If anybody was more wounded than Welles by the film's unfortunate odyssey it's surely Kodar who is so hypnotic in a wordless (and mostly clothes-less) role that it's unimaginable she could not have had the same kind of international career that someone like say Natasja Kinski had in the 70s-80s. The scene in the car in the rain and the scene in the abandoned backlot are two that should be included on the shortlist of Welles' very finest achievements. Huston gets into his character gradually (he seems somewhat baffled by the production and most definitely drunk in the early going) but by the film's halfway point there's no mistaking he'd figured it out and was giving it everything he had. He's playing a larger than life figure who's been mortally wounded by the unfortunate fact that his chosen art form is so hugely reliant on so many inferiors as much as he is by his own need to create under those conditions. If he had been blessed with the ability to paint or sculpt or do anything that required solitary creation he might've had a much happier life.

Welles must've been angry and/or dejected at the state of his career in the years leading up to Wind with good reason, and though the film does sometimes tread a fine line it never tips over into outright bitterness. The decision to satirize people like Pauline Kael, Antonioni and Robert Evans comes off as silly, he can barely contain his jealousy of Bogdanovich and much of the "documentary" footage is distractingly sloppy to put it kindly but the assembly of the myriad parts is amazingly well done and with a light enough touch that it never turns into a mope. As the culmination of the latter years in a great artist's life it feels like a fitting swan song.

[mfunk9786]

[Big Ben]

Welles must've been angry and/or dejected at the state of his career in the years leading up to Wind with good reason, and though the film does sometimes tread a fine line it never tips over into outright bitterness. The decision to satirize people like Pauline Kael, Antonioni and Robert Evans comes off as silly, he can barely contain his jealousy of Bogdanovich and much of the "documentary" footage is distractingly sloppy to put it kindly but the assembly of the myriad parts is amazingly well done and with a light enough touch that it never turns into a mope. As the culmination of the latter years in a great artist's life it feels like a fitting swan song.

It's interesting because in the time that Welles intermittently shot this Bogdonavich went from critical acclaim to critical disappointment (In Hollywood's view I suppose.). Independent of how I feel about about things like At Long Last Love and Nickelodeon I don't think it's disingenuous to state that Bogdonavich had more than one hiccup.

Speaking for myself I thought Bogdonavich's character was meant to be a parody of the apostles famous directors attract (Bogdonavich's character even uses the world apostle.).

[Persona]

If Welles is satirizing others it would seem that he is satirizing himself and his view of those others even more, so I don't think it's silly, these caricatures built into a film drenched in self-caricature. This is the artist's ego in its twilight, and it's something of a hellscape. Of the uber-meta, self-reflexive film-about-itself niche genre, I think this is the only one that comes close to approaching the potency of 8 1/2.

The Kael stand-in actually seems to me a favorable character. She's pompous and pugnacious, sure, not unlike Hannaford. That bothers him, this reflection of his own egotistical qualities in a female form, but what bothers him more is she is actually insightful--into his art and into him as a person. He hates her for that, in fact.

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Leading to his lashing out at her, which is basically the climax of the film and his undoing--in the end, he rejects being known. The whole project that Zara has put on has pushed him over the brink, all the probing people and cameras. Cameras that Hannaford usually tried to shoot others with, to take their vitality, to use his art as a way to possess. Now the cameras have owned him, shot him. Shot him dead.

[ShellOilJunior]

I think I heard Otterlake refer to Hannaford as "Dad" once or twice, a name that Anderson and Baumbach affectionately use for Peter B.