Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

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JSC
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#26 Post by JSC » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:16 pm

Another potential addition to the list...

I don't like to judge by trailers, but StudioCanal's upcoming 4K/Blu-ray release
of Le cercle rouge unfortunately seems to be leaning towards the teal.

https://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=27557
Last edited by JSC on Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Drucker
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#27 Post by Drucker » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:14 pm

How can you even tell with a Melville film?

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JSC
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#28 Post by JSC » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:31 pm

Too true, but even a comparison with the OOP Criterion and StudioCanal's own release
from 2010 show some differences (especially indoor/studio scenes).

dave1
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#29 Post by dave1 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:22 am

If Brisseau's Céline is in there, then Un jeu brutal, De bruit et de fureur and Noce blanche should be in there too. Personally I don't find them too bad.

The newer Pialat restorations may be technically better than the previous ones, but color-wise they are more questionable than, say, Van Gogh.

The list is missing the most yellow I've ever seen: Duelle.
Besides, it's obvious that the film is not supposed to look like that:
The first scene at the aquarium is comprised of 3 shots. The first two are "neutral", but the third one (which should match) is all yellow.
Image(ending of 2nd shot)
Image (beginning of 3rd)

mhofmann
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#30 Post by mhofmann » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:19 pm

dave1 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:22 am
The list is missing the most yellow I've ever seen: Duelle.
I'm not sure that this is a Ritrovata (or Eclair) job, but instead I find hints that it may be a restoration done by Technicolor Paris. Restoration notes on the Arrow release include "35mm original prints were used as a visual reference throughout by the colourist."
As a color scheme, it does look possibly deliberate to me, as opposed to some of the wild choices (incl. weak black levels) on many Ritrovata works.

dave1
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#31 Post by dave1 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:43 am

My bad, I thought Duelle was done by Eclair.

As for the film itself, I've seen it a couple of times in 35mm and it looked pretty much like this
Image

whereas the 2K looks, well:
Image

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tenia
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#32 Post by tenia » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:15 am

I've seen the Brisseau. De bruit et de fureur and Un jeu brutal have been restored by Lumières Numériques (now Hiventy), and Noce blanche by Digimage (now Hiventy too). I haven't inclded them because they don't have either color signature. Céline does (though I haven't seen it and am simply basing this on Classik caps - I thus can't state if this is all along the movie or just a few shots).

I disagree on Duelle. Maybe it shouldn't look like this, but this isn't Ritrovata's recognizable color-signature and it shows (and indeed, it's not, it's from Technicolor, a lab who I can't recall having seen using a similar LUT leaving a similar color signature).

Thanks for these suggestions though, but remember this isn't a thread to point out all the restorations that are looking yellow or blue or just weird, but both Ritrovata and Eclair are leaving more specific color-signatures than this, and that's what this thread is aimed at compiling.

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Drucker
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#33 Post by Drucker » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:47 am

Can someone point me to the blu-ray forum post with the helpful diagram of where the LUT impact comes in?

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movielocke
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#34 Post by movielocke » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:36 am

dave1 wrote:My bad, I thought Duelle was done by Eclair.

As for the film itself, I've seen it a couple of times in 35mm and it looked pretty much like this
Image

whereas the 2K looks, well:
Image
It would be fairly unusual for any cinematographer to have a practical light play magenta on camera as in the first screenshot, much more likely for an interior practical light to play yellow.

LUTS can be applied anywhere, they’re completely non destructive. Dps choose them before shooting, can adjust them playing takes back on the set or in dailies. NLEs can toggle them on or off or switch them out, as can finishing software. They can be on the camera raw files, NLE intermediate files, or on finished files. EXRs can carry multiple ones on their many different matte layers. You can apply different LUTs on different outputs for their different color spaces: home video, digital projection, 35mm color print film out, 35mm b/w color separations etc etc.

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dwk
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#35 Post by dwk » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:35 am

JSC wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:16 pm
Another potential addition to the list...

I don't like to judge by trailers, but StudioCanal's upcoming 4K/Blu-ray release
of Le cercle rouge unfortunately seems to be leaning towards the teal.

https://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=27557
According to this, Le cercle rouge was restored by Hiventy

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tenia
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#36 Post by tenia » Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:14 pm

I'll wait to see the full restored disc of Le cercle rouge instead of just the trailer, because based on the trailer only, some shots look a tad yellow à la Ritrovata but many look much more balanced than this. Seems too early to me to judge.

mhofmann
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#37 Post by mhofmann » Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:27 pm

Drucker wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:47 am
Can someone point me to the blu-ray forum post with the helpful diagram of where the LUT impact comes in?
You mean this one?

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Drucker
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#38 Post by Drucker » Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:48 pm

Thank you!

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Michael Kerpan
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#39 Post by Michael Kerpan » Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:34 pm

movielocke -- It looks to me like than lamp might actually have alternating white and rose panels.... (based on both screen captures).

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movielocke
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#40 Post by movielocke » Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:05 pm

Michael Kerpan wrote:movielocke -- It looks to me like than lamp might actually have alternating white and rose panels.... (based on both screen captures).
Very plausible and all caveats that I’m looking at this on my phone. To me the first screen capture has a gross and oppressive “lit by Florescent bulbs from wal mart” color cast to it, while the second one looks correct.

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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#41 Post by Michael Kerpan » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:34 pm

movielocke wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:05 pm
Very plausible and all caveats that I’m looking at this on my phone. To me the first screen capture has a gross and oppressive “lit by Florescent bulbs from wal mart” color cast to it, while the second one looks correct.
I think somewhere halfway between the two would probably be just about right.

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movielocke
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#42 Post by movielocke » Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:05 am

Michael Kerpan wrote:
movielocke wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:05 pm
Very plausible and all caveats that I’m looking at this on my phone. To me the first screen capture has a gross and oppressive “lit by Florescent bulbs from wal mart” color cast to it, while the second one looks correct.
I think somewhere halfway between the two would probably be just about right.
You’re probably right, color is relative so next to each other causes them to contrast more than they actually are.

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lzx
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#43 Post by lzx » Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:58 pm

Maltic wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:49 pm
Three recent restorations from the Sinosphere where Ritrovata had a hand in:

Flowers of Shanghai
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAm0OjKKJi4
Debated here:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=327188

In the Mood for Love
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJj9-t2A-_o

Xiao Wu (Pickpocket)
https://www.filmlinc.org/nyff2020/films/xiao-wu/
Xiao Wu on the Criterion Channel looks extremely teal. Interestingly, it's also missing the first title card ("Beijing Film Academy").

mhofmann
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#44 Post by mhofmann » Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:15 pm

lzx wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:58 pm
Xiao Wu on the Criterion Channel looks extremely teal. Interestingly, it's also missing the first title card ("Beijing Film Academy").
This doesn’t look like a new restoration yet leans toward the cooler colors: https://youtu.be/qL9LGnrcpYA
If what’s on the Criterion Channel looks similar, it may simply be the intended color scheme.

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movielocke
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#45 Post by movielocke » Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:16 pm

movielocke wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:36 am
dave1 wrote:My bad, I thought Duelle was done by Eclair.

As for the film itself, I've seen it a couple of times in 35mm and it looked pretty much like this
Image

whereas the 2K looks, well:
Image
It would be fairly unusual for any cinematographer to have a practical light play magenta on camera as in the first screenshot, much more likely for an interior practical light to play yellow.

LUTS can be applied anywhere, they’re completely non destructive. Dps choose them before shooting, can adjust them playing takes back on the set or in dailies. NLEs can toggle them on or off or switch them out, as can finishing software. They can be on the camera raw files, NLE intermediate files, or on finished files. EXRs can carry multiple ones on their many different matte layers. You can apply different LUTs on different outputs for their different color spaces: home video, digital projection, 35mm color print film out, 35mm b/w color separations etc etc.
took a gander at the levels/histograms on these and was surprised that the yellow/magenta numbers ratio the skin tones for both screencaps are both fine/correct (both within normal tolerances for correct skin tones). But the CYMK numbers on the yellow one indicate that saturation has been pushed hard and beyond what I'd consider normal tolerances (don't know if its a film known for its saturation or not). This may be an instance where what appears to be a ritrovata yellow house effect is being exacerbated by saturation more than how their house effect is balancing the actual channels.

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lzx
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#46 Post by lzx » Fri Nov 06, 2020 2:51 pm

mhofmann wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:15 pm
lzx wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:58 pm
Xiao Wu on the Criterion Channel looks extremely teal. Interestingly, it's also missing the first title card ("Beijing Film Academy").
This doesn’t look like a new restoration yet leans toward the cooler colors: https://youtu.be/qL9LGnrcpYA
If what’s on the Criterion Channel looks similar, it may simply be the intended color scheme.
I should clarify that the restoration doesn't just look teal - it also has the piss-soaked look that is Ritrovata's signature; teal, however, is the dominant color, especially in shots that prominently feature the sky. I would post some screenshots but I'm not sure how to host my own images on the forum. In any case the restoration looks very different colorwise from the video you linked to, and certainly different from the 16mm print I had the good fortune to see a few years back (with the usual caveat about using past home video releases as reference, etc.)

mhofmann
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#47 Post by mhofmann » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:16 am

StudioCanal commissioned L'Immagine Ritrovata for the restoration of Serpico, and the results don't look as if they have dialed back their signature at all...

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tenia
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#48 Post by tenia » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:59 pm

mhofmann wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:16 am
StudioCanal commissioned L'Immagine Ritrovata for the restoration of Serpico, and the results don't look as if they have dialed back their signature at all...
No, indeed. I had a quick look at the BD, many sequences are a nightmare in terms of color drift, starting straight with the beginning of the movie.

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tenia
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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#49 Post by tenia » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:21 am

You can add to Eclair's steely-blue gradings the 3 Chabrol movies : L'enfer, La cérémonie but especially Rien ne va plus which is a festival in this regard.

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Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#50 Post by Michael Kerpan » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:49 am

I honestly don't understand how such uniformly bad work could have become a de facto norm. :-(

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