UHD Titles Worth/Not Worth Upgrading

[nicolas]

After a week of delay in customs I finally got both Yojimbo and Sanjuro today.

Since the other two Toho UHD’s I saw so far, Stray Dog and Ikiru, were a little disappointing due to their mediocre authoring and a light grain pass, I kept my expectations in check for the other two,…

…only to be very positively surprised. Yes, they still did the masters some minor disservice by leaving 10-15 GB on these BD-66 discs empty but the moments I checked looked very good.

Again, I’m not entirely sure what film elements have been used and were available but both films look astonishing in that regard. This is another example of a night-and-day improvement over the Criterion’s. I honestly believed that these ancient masters will be roughly all we’re ever going to get for these beautiful films but no, both films look as if they’ve been shot not long ago.

If I had to guess, apart from the optical obviously, Yojimbo looks like an OCN scan and Sanjuro a first-gen IP scan. That’s how good they look, even in SDR.

Even though all this deserves praise, I still feel Toho has again done a light grain wipe to attempt a "seamless" experience with the opticals. There’s frighteningly little difference between the opticals’ resolution and the regular footage. Yes, there is a difference albeit a very small one. Especially for an era when opticals were still everything but "sharp" these Kurosawa opticals are very surprisingly detailed.
I honestly think that the opticals spread over the Three Colors trilogy, made 30 years later, look worse and less detailed than those I’ve seen during my spot-check of Yojimbo and Sanjuro.

Don’t get me wrong, there is grain everywhere, this is not a DNR atrocity, it just feels slightly odd all in all. I think I should probably attribute this to how different and better these films look now compared to the Criterion. My brain still needs to adapt to the sudden beauty that’s been unearthed.

Like with the other releases, these only have Japanese subtitles. PCM 2.0 and 3.0 audio is included each.

Anyway, can’t wait for High and Low, Kagemusha and especially what they managed to achieve with Seven Samurai and its lack of the OCN.

(If anyone is interested, I’ll sell both discs and the other Toho UHD’s on a certain bay).

[nicolas]

Plaion’s Decision to Leave UHD is also very impressive in DV. BD-100 with Korean Atmos but the caveat of not having English subtitles. Not even hidden on the disc unfortunately.

Therefore recommended for native speakers and remuxers!

[therewillbeblus]

What are most people doing to upgrade their Mad Max tetralogy? It seems like KL's 4K of the first film is superior to the one in the WB set, and there was a second pressing that fixes issues within that set, but I'm not sure which version is available on Gruv, etc. - seems like a bit of a cluster...

[AxeYou]

A few image and audio quality updates:

Image

Scarface: Caveat/FYI that US and RoW UHDs differ slightly. Pick your poison b/w ugly opticals and ugly player-generated title cards.

US UHD: optical burnt-in location titles & subs on dupe neg
International UHD: player generated location titles & subs on OG neg
US remastered Blu-ray: digital burnt-in recreations of location titles & subs on OG neg
Oh, and as far I can tell the opening titles are the same digital recreations on all three versions.

Ghost in the Shell: JP import (has English subs) (solid upgrade) > US Lionsgate

The two stem from the same restoration. However, the JP 4K has a darker image, which is presumably closer to what the director signed off. It doesn’t have Dolby Vision, but the listed MaxCLL is only 873 nits.

On the audio front, Lionsgate’s Japanese audio erroneously has the English track’s end credits song mixed in. The JP 4K has the correct track. The original song is much more in line with the mood of the movie.

Solid upgrade because, like Akira, these Japanese anime 4K restorations are marred by DNR. The best non-DNR'd release is the 2017 JP BD.

They Live: I would argue there isn’t a clear winner b/w SC and Eagle, even when we are just comparing the HDR10 BL. While SC’s HDR10 BL looks worse in the infamous smoke scene, Eagle looks worse in other shots. Plus, SC has its DV FEL to tidy up the image and help with tone mapping, whereas Eagle only comes with HDR10.

Audio

Let's start with a piece of good news.

StudioCanal's Don't Look Now UHD sounds great.

Blah-ray/Moshrom previously compared DVDs and BDs up to the 2015 Criterion. I picked up the UHD for its stellar image quality and compared its audio track's waveform and spectrogram against the previous best-sounding release (2011 Optimum BD). The charts look similar, i.e. towering over other releases; and the new UHD sounds pretty good from spot-checking.

And, a few corrections if you don’t mind.

Clockwork Orange (WB) (caveat: excellent video upgrade, good mono sound but poor 5.1 track)

The 5.1, despite being a remix, is actually better than the mono in center channel clarity.
https://blah-ray.blogspot.com/2021/09/a ... -1971.html

Apocalypse Now (Arthaus) (German import) (compression same as US/UK Lionsgate but has a "restoration" of the original audio mix which may be the 1997 audio mix used for the Laserdisc release)

Apocalypse Now (Arthaus > Lionsgate) (the only global release with the original audio track (lossless))

German Arthaus has the OG audio track, but it is actually lossy; Italian Eagle likely has the 1997 restored 5.1 in lossless. And, just to be clear, I haven't seen any evidence suggesting that any of these mixes, the new Atmos included, sound bad or overly revisionist. So it's a pretty minor concern at the end of the day.

Now, on to updates.

I picked up a few more titles recently and found a new source that discusses poor audio. It’s a Russian “backchannel” site though, so I won’t be linking to that here like I do when I draw on Blah-ray or the BR and fanrestore forums.

Also, I'll clarify that by listing the "alternatives" below, I'm by no means suggesting people buy these outdated releases instead of UHDs. They are for reference only and also there to help interested remuxers.

Heavy filtering / muffled

Halloween
https://blah-ray.blogspot.com/2021/10/h ... -1978.html
Alternative: 1994 Criterion LaserDisc

Paths of Glory
Kino’s track is similar to the MGM DVD, but heavily filtered.
Source: Russian backchannel site
Alternative: 1999 MGM US DVD

Moderate filtering

Elephant Man, The
https://blah-ray.blogspot.com/2021/10/t ... -1980.html
Alternative: 2001 Paramount US DVD

For All Mankind
Criterion aggressively scrubbed a wide frequency band around 16 kHz.
https://imageban.ru/show/2022/05/06/bef ... 5ccf80/png
Source: Russian backchannel site
Alternative: 2009 Eureka UK BD’s 5.1 (created from original audio stems) or 2.0 (OG matrixed stereo)

Servant, The
StudioCanal UHD’s track is at least moderately filtered. I haven't checked spectrograms but it sounds pretty muffled just from spot checking.
Source: Russian backchannel site and me confirming
Alternative: Universal DVD

Light filtering

Get Carter
Warner DVD sounds “a little more transparent” than BFI UHD.
Source: Russian backchannel site
Alternative: 2000 Warner US DVD

Piano, The (Criterion / StudioCanal)
“Crosstalk is incorrectly removed” from the new UHD (Google-translate. I don't really understand what this means.). Spectrogram also shows the 16 kHz line being scrubbed.
Source: Russian backchannel site
Alternative: 2014 StudioCanal UK BD’s 5.1 for a faithful de-matrixing of the original Dolby Stereo track, or (maybe) 2012 Lionsgate US BD’s 2.0 for matrixed stereo

Non-OG mix & misc. other issues

Killing, The
MGM DVD has “the most balanced sound.”
Source: Russian backchannel site
Alternative: 1999 MGM US DVD

Labyrinth
The advertised OG 2.0 on the 35th anniversary DigiBook is likely a downmix.
https://fanrestore.com/thread-1077-post ... l#pid75249
https://fanrestore.com/thread-1077-post ... l#pid75387
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... tcount=922
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... tcount=943
Alternative: LaserDisc or 1999 Sony US DVD 2.0

Marathon Man
No OG mono. But the 5.1 remix sounds good and likely came from original audio stems.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... stcount=86
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... stcount=69
Alternative: Warner/Paramount BD has lossy restored mono

Taking of Pelham One Two Three, The
No OG mono.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.ph ... st20747347
Alternative: MGM DVD or BD

Texas Chain Saw Massacre, The (Second Sight)
At 53:47-53:51, 2 moans/grunts are missing from the mono track. Cross-checking VHS rips on YouTube confirms this.
Blah-ray/Moshrom also stated that all modern BDs sound underwhelming. (SS reused mono from their 2014 BD, which was a director-supervised restoration.)
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... count=1322
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... count=1601
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... count=1275
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... count=1290
https://fanrestore.com/thread-4892-post ... l#pid82835
Alternative: LaserDisc/VHS likely will have less filtered and correct audio. MPI UHD’s mono appears to be correct content-wise.

Finch, I noticed that a lot of the links in the OP ended up broken when you copied them over last time. To keep with your style on image quality summaries, let's just leave these links out. We can also remove some explanations to make the OP more concise and readable. Interested readers can search this thread for detail. Below I'll merge my new additions to audio with OP to help you easily update.

SpoilerShow

UHDs with poorer audio than previous releases:

Heavy filtering / muffled

Anatomy of a Murder (Alternative: 1986 RCA/Columbia LaserDisc)
Bridge on the River Kwai, The (Alternative: 1985 RCA/Columbia Hi-Fi VHS)
Citizen Kane (Alternative: 1992 Turner Hi-Fi VHS)
Dawn of the Dead (Theatrical Cut) (Alternative: 2017 Midnight Factory BD or 2013 JP Happinet BD)
Dr. Strangelove (Alternative: 1994 LaserDisc)
For a Few Dollars More (Alternative: 1984 Key Video Hi-Fi VHS)
Halloween (Alternative: 1994 Criterion LaserDisc)
Mr. Smith Goes to Washington (Alternative: 1995 Columbia Tri-Star LaserDisc)
Paths of Glory (Alternative: 1999 MGM US DVD)
Raging Bull (Alternative: 1990 Criterion LaserDisc)
Rear Window (Alternative: Universal DVD)
Wizard of Oz, The (Alternative: 1989 MGM LaserDisc)

Moderate filtering

2001: A Space Odyssey (Alternative: 1997 LaserDisc (PILF-2510) or 1998 MGM DVD)
Double Indemnity (Alternative: 1991 MCA LaserDisc)
Elephant Man, The (Alternative: 2001 Paramount US DVD)
Fistful of Dollars, A (Alternative: 1985 CBS/Fox LaserDisc)
For All Mankind (Alternative: 2009 Eureka UK BD’s 5.1 (created from original audio stems) or 2.0 (OG matrixed stereo))
Full Metal Jacket (Alternative: 1999 Warner R1 DVD)
Godfather, The (Alternative: No good alternative)
Great Escape, The (Alternative: 1991 MGM LaserDisc)
In the Heat of the Night (Alternative: 2018 Criterion BD)
It's a Wonderful Life (Alternative: 1991 Republic Pictures LaserDisc)
Jaws (Alternative: 1995/1997 MCA LaserDisc)
Servant, The (Alternative: Universal DVD)
Seventh Seal, The (Alternative: 1993 JP LaserDisc)
Vertigo (Alternative: 2005 Universal DVD)

Light filtering

Get Carter (Alternative: 2000 Warner US DVD)
Piano, The (Criterion & StudioCanal) (Alternative: 2014 StudioCanal UK BD’s 5.1 for a faithful de-matrixing of the original Dolby Stereo track, or (maybe) 2012 Lionsgate US BD’s 2.0 for matrixed stereo)
Taxi Driver (Very minor. Likely not discernible. Alternative: 1990 Criterion LaserDisc or 1991 Japanese Columbia Tri-Star LaserDisc)

Non-OG mix & misc. other issues

American Gangster (Non-OG. Alternative: original BD)
Apocalypse Now (Theatrical Cut) (US Lionsgate UHD only has Atmos remix; IT Eagle UHD only has an earlier remixed 5.1. Alternative: German UHD & US BD purportedly have OG 5.1 in AC-3)
Back to the Future Trilogy (A handful of dialog has minor changes over the years. Alternative: LaserDiscs should have original versions)
Big Lebowski, The (Comparison against Cinema DTS disc reveals that UHD mix is non-OG.)
Blade Runner (Atmos track has later remixed effects. Alternative: 2007 BD Dolby TrueHD 5.1 is closer to OG)
Casino (DTS:X’s surround channels are boosted compared to theatrical. Alternative: Cinema DTS or BD 5.1)
Deer Hunter, The (StudioCanal’s 5.1 is sourced from 70mm mix but has a brief audio drop at one point. Their 2.0 is possible OG stereo and doesn’t have the drop. Shout’s 2.0 and 5.1 both have this audio drop, and neither sounds like StudioCanal’s 5.1. Hypothesis is their 2.0 is a downmix from 5.1, which in turn is an old remix.)
Escape from New York (Shout’s 2.0 is a unique faithful remaster of the OG theatrical, whereas Eagle only offers 5.1 remix. Shout > StudioCanal.)
Gladiator (Non-OG. Alternative: Cinema DTS or Signature Collection DVD AC-3)
Jurassic Park (Non-OG, but OG has distorted vocal. Alternative: 3D BD’s DTS-HD MA track seems to be best-sounding)
Killing, The (MGM DVD has “the most balanced sound”)
Labyrinth (Advertised OG 2.0 on the 35th anniversary steelbook is likely a downmix. Alternative: LaserDisc or 1999 Sony US DVD 2.0)
Marathon Man (No OG mono. But the 5.1 remix sounds good and likely came from original audio stems. Alternative: Warner/Paramount BD has lossy restored mono)
Matrix, The (Comparison against Cinema DTS disc reveals that both Atmos and 5.1 are remixes)
Reservoir Dogs (No OG 2.0. Alternative: US/JP LaserDisc 2.0)
Shawshank Redemption, The (Noticeable clipping. Alternative: 2008 US BD TrueHD 5.1)
Shining, The (No OG mono. Alternative: 1999 Warner DVD)
Taking of Pelham One Two Three, The (No OG mono. Alternative: MGM DVD or BD)
Texas Chain Saw Massacre, The (Second Sight) (Filtered and missing a few grunts. Alternative: LaserDisc/VHS likely will have less filtered and correct audio. MPI UHD’s mono appears to be correct content-wise.)
Thing, The (Non-OG. Alternative: Signature LaserDisc AC-3 or Shout BD 2.0)
Top Gun (Atmos track widely considered a bad mix. Alternative: US THX LaserDisc’s AC-3 5.1 or PCM 2.0)
Total Recall (Neither the US Lionsgate nor IT Eagle UHD has OG 2.0. Alternative: US LaserDisc)

[Finch]

excellent work, AxeYou

Thelma and Louise (Criterion) Chris's review

[hearthesilence]

Yes, very helpful. It's crazy how picture quality for home viewing seems to get better as time and technology advances, but with audio it seems to go in the opposite direction. Even when high resolution audio is utilized, it's undermined by all this filtering and processing that makes it all sound dead and lifeless.

[AxeYou]

Yes, very helpful. It's crazy how picture quality for home viewing seems to get better as time and technology advances, but with audio it seems to go in the opposite direction. Even when high resolution audio is utilized, it's undermined by all this filtering and processing that makes it all sound dead and lifeless.

Right?!!! What I really fail to understand is how come the music industry and consumers have long shunned all this filtering and processing, while film professionals and aficionado persistently go in the opposite and demonstrably bonkers direction. Are the two worlds so siloed? Excerpt from Moshrom's eloquent piece on Blah-ray:

When it comes to sonic noise reduction, the catalogue CD market has gotten it right. Noise reduction is a BIG no-no nowadays, and altering dynamics is also condemned. But when it comes to catalogue titles on blu-ray? Sure, nuke it with noise reduction! That’s a good thing! The technology exists, they say! Make the loud parts in the soundtrack louder, sure! Re-EQ the movie to make the dialogue less thin—that won’t have any negative effect at all!

...

In my previous explanation, I wrote about the hypocrisy of denoised lossless audio, and that spiel still stands. If you transfer an optical or magnetic soundtrack—say you even do this at 24-bit, and, hey, maybe even at 24/96 or higher—and then systematically remove or significantly attenuate all frequencies over 8 kHz, is your resultant DTS-HD MA or LPCM output still truly lossless? Would a 192 kbps AC-3 track that didn’t undergo this process of noise reduction not be more lossless, in a way?

[Finch]

The Changeling (Second Sight) nicwood's review

[nicolas]

The Changeling (Second Sight) nicwood's review

Forgot to post my notes here as well. Fantastic upgrade all around!

[Finch]

I've seen several BR posters posting good feedback about Kino's The Longest Yard 4k though no direct comparisons with the BD.

First impressions of their Night of the Hunter disc are good.

Also worth mentioning for any Wes Craven fans here that are 4k capable and based outside the US: Scream's People under the Stairs UHD is region-locked for the US as someone in the UK importing the film discovered. Unclear yet if that's going to be the standard going forward or not though at least one other Shout 4k (Weathering with You) is also locked and it didn't get a replacement issued. Shout, when emailed about People, replied that it shouldn't be region locked.

[M Sanderson]

Really glad to see confirmation regarding the colour correction of SS's Changeling 4k. Glad that I pre-ordered.

That's a real concern about the region locking of People Under the Stairs. My 4k player is not enabled for this, and I almost pre-ordered the film.

People will really be gutted if Creepshow and The Burning also end up USA format restricted.

[Finch]

caps-a-holic got busy. Usual caveats apply.

Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (Arrow 4k vs CC BD)

Marathon Man (Kino 4k vs Paramount BD)

The Italian Job (Kino 4k vs Paramount BD)

Shiver of the Vampire (Indicator 4k vs Redemption BD)

[Finch]

Chris reviews 4ks of The Last Starfighter (Arrow) and Branded to Kill (Criterion).

[rrenault]

I've been watching the Italian UHD of The Conformist. The compression is fine in my opinion. That said, I'd say it's comfortably a solid upgrade over the 2014 blu-ray from Raro but arguably disappointing compared to the remastered blu-ray that accompanies the UHD disc.

I could be wrong, Finch, but we haven't yet had any "solid compared to old blu-ray but disappointing compared to remastered blu-ray" UHDs yet, have we?

[samlop]

Hopefully one final look at Three Colors: Red, I managed to capture Criterion's full FEL image and uploaded a 3-way comparison of Criterion's HDR10 base layer (BL), Criterion's DV FEL, and Curzon (from andreasy969's caps on BR): https://slow.pics/c/wcbjxkA0

To my eyes, Criterion's Enhancement Layer (EL) does not restore any detail lost from the filtered HDR10 BL, other than perhaps obvious compression artifacts like large pixel blocks which I did not specifically check for. This corroborates nicwood's observation on BR. As such, Curzon is indisputably the winner.

I don't know how much FEL helps on other problematic Criterion releases like The Adventures of Baron Munchausen. But, if it similarly doesn't restore much detail outside of obvious compression artifacts, this fact would very strongly suggest that Pixelogic indeed low-pass filters a master before encoding, as opposed to the filtered look being solely attributable to their encoder settings. In other words, if they pre-filter a master and feed that result as the "golden target" to the FEL delta-encoder, then of course the EL cannot restore any detail, which is what appears to happen here.

For those interested: I captured this with DoViBaker, which claims to "bake" the DV EL back into the HDR10 BL. I can confirm it works, because when I tested it on StudioCanal's Total Recall, the "baked" FEL fixed the BL's atrocious compression (comparison of BL from CAH vs my BL vs baked FEL). Obvious caveats: 1) I cannot guarantee that this process is 100% accurate compared to how actual UHD players deal with FEL, 2) the colors are off so please compare detail only.

Would you mind sharing the steps/settings you used in DoViBaker to do this? Want to try to do it with some other titles where the HDR10 layer doesn’t hold up without the DoVi layer.

I’ve been trying with DoViBaker but I seem unable to get the EL back into the HDR10 BL to recover data to get the better compression. It ends up looking like the plain HDR10 Layer with the steps I’ve done.

[AxeYou]

I've been watching the Italian UHD of The Conformist. The compression is fine in my opinion. That said, I'd say it's comfortably a solid upgrade over the 2014 blu-ray from Raro but arguably disappointing compared to the remastered blu-ray that accompanies the UHD disc.

What’s your impression on the color grading? Were the earlier cries against Ritrovata yellow exaggerated?

Would you mind sharing the steps/settings you used in DoViBaker to do this? Want to try to do it with some other titles where the HDR10 layer doesn’t hold up without the DoVi layer.

I used DoVi_Scripts to automate much of the process. RESET_9999 on the makemkv forum maintains it. You'll need to set up a bunch of tools like dovi_tool, DGDemux, and ffmpeg. There are some instructions in the linked folder. Feel free to PM me if you can't get it working. I can upload the entire tool pack when I get a chance.

(In case you're interested, this script's main purpose is to "inject" DV tone-mapping metadata into plain HDR10. Very handy with HDR10-only physical releases that are otherwise streaming in DV.)

I’ve been trying with DoViBaker but I seem unable to get the EL back into the HDR10 BL to recover data to get the better compression. It ends up looking like the plain HDR10 Layer with the steps I’ve done.

It's also possible that the EL doesn't contribute much in those cases, especially when we are checking on an 8/10-bit SDR display. In my limited experience, the effect of EL is only obvious when the HDR10 BL has clear compression artifacts, e.g. Total Recall 4K by StudioCanal. That's what I checked to make sure my setup was working.

Most of the time, applying the EL shows little effect other than very subtly enhanced shadow contrast.

On a few titles, the HDR10 BL is graded to 1000 nits peak, while the EL expands the grading to 2000 or 4000 nits peak. This is presumably to help non-DV playback chains more easily tone map, given today's display capabilities. Here is an incomplete list.

[nicolas]

Finally got my High and Low JP 4K today.

My goodness, even the posted screenshots couldn’t possibly prepare me for how sensational this disc looks. Easily the best of the Toho Kurosawa’s I’ve seen so far, slightly ahead of Yojimbo.

Unbelievable clarity in all levels of detail - mid-ranges and blacks even for SDR and very solid highlights. The encode is great, thank God. HDR could have done a little more overall but no criticism for something that isn’t there.

Yet honestly what’s even stronger here than the visual upgrade (unbelievable to say this) is the audio. First things first, I’m no audio expert and don’t have proper equipment (only a Sennheiser Ambeo Soundbar compared to a full-equipped speaker system) but that audio sounds phenomenal. 4-track stereo (PCM) with a healthy bitrate of around 5 Mbps. Sure, the bitrate isn’t everything but Toho has most definitely restored the audio. Amazing detail, surprising highlights and a richness you just don’t get from Criterion and their awful, awful filtering.

I just know it’s better here even though I’ve last seen the film two years ago on the Criterion BD because that thing is garbage compared to this presentation.

I can only hope that Western distributors are able to license these restorations as it would be seriously disappointing if not more people could literally have whole new experiences with Kurosawa’s masterworks.

Kagemusha should be with me in a couple of days. Waiting for Seven Samurai will be hard now.

Edit: Currently ripping the disc. I forgot to add to my original post that Toho used a BD-100 for this and gave the film 77 GB. This shows in the encode! I was actually wondering why High and Low suddenly looks so good and Ikiru somewhat lacking in that regard even though they have a similar runtime.

This is a very good sign for Seven Samurai as well.

[nicolas]

I've been watching the Italian UHD of The Conformist. The compression is fine in my opinion. That said, I'd say it's comfortably a solid upgrade over the 2014 blu-ray from Raro but arguably disappointing compared to the remastered blu-ray that accompanies the UHD disc.

What’s your impression on the color grading? Were the earlier cries against Ritrovata yellow exaggerated?

Would you mind sharing the steps/settings you used in DoViBaker to do this? Want to try to do it with some other titles where the HDR10 layer doesn’t hold up without the DoVi layer.

I used DoVi_Scripts to automate much of the process. RESET_9999 on the makemkv forum maintains it. You'll need to set up a bunch of tools like dovi_tool, DGDemux, and ffmpeg. There are some instructions in the linked folder. Feel free to PM me if you can't get it working. I can upload the entire tool pack when I get a chance.

(In case you're interested, this script's main purpose is to "inject" DV tone-mapping metadata into plain HDR10. Very handy with HDR10-only physical releases that are otherwise streaming in DV.)

I’ve been trying with DoViBaker but I seem unable to get the EL back into the HDR10 BL to recover data to get the better compression. It ends up looking like the plain HDR10 Layer with the steps I’ve done.

It's also possible that the EL doesn't contribute much in those cases, especially when we are checking on an 8/10-bit SDR display. In my limited experience, the effect of EL is only obvious when the HDR10 BL has clear compression artifacts, e.g. Total Recall 4K by StudioCanal. That's what I checked to make sure my setup was working.

Most of the time, applying the EL shows little effect other than very subtly enhanced shadow contrast.

On a few titles, the HDR10 BL is graded to 1000 nits peak, while the EL expands the grading to 2000 or 4000 nits peak. This is presumably to help non-DV playback chains more easily tone map, given today's display capabilities. Here is an incomplete list.

I have the Italian Conformist 4K and I think it’s very nicely graded. This is what I wrote to a BR.com user about it. For convenience I’ll simply copy-paste:

The screenshots of the Japanese disc tell me exactly what I suspected it would be when I took a look at the Italian disc - pure marketing hyperbole. There is barely, if any, difference to what a simple white balance change in the TV settings achieves. I think the Eagle disc is very nicely graded according to the Storaro-Bertolucci reference print, looking beautifully like film - and even more so like something "from the past" where the film is set in.

Encoding on the Japanese is 99% identical. The only noteworthy difference seems to be the lossless audio.

Hoping at this point that Arrow will release a nice UHD in the UK. Raro has US rights - if they go 4K this would be their first. Maybe Kino has a say in it but them and Metrograph not releasing Millennium Mambo in 4K is a bummer and maybe a sign for this one as well.

[mhofmann]

The screenshots of the Japanese disc tell me exactly what I suspected it would be when I took a look at the Italian disc - pure marketing hyperbole. There is barely, if any, difference to what a simple white balance change in the TV settings achieves. I think the Eagle disc is very nicely graded according to the Storaro-Bertolucci reference print, looking beautifully like film - and even more so like something "from the past" where the film is set in.

I completely agree with your assessment here!

[samlop]

Would you mind sharing the steps/settings you used in DoViBaker to do this? Want to try to do it with some other titles where the HDR10 layer doesn’t hold up without the DoVi layer.

I used DoVi_Scripts to automate much of the process. RESET_9999 on the makemkv forum maintains it. You'll need to set up a bunch of tools like dovi_tool, DGDemux, and ffmpeg. There are some instructions in the linked folder. Feel free to PM me if you can't get it working. I can upload the entire tool pack when I get a chance.

(In case you're interested, this script's main purpose is to "inject" DV tone-mapping metadata into plain HDR10. Very handy with HDR10-only physical releases that are otherwise streaming in DV.)

I’ve been trying with DoViBaker but I seem unable to get the EL back into the HDR10 BL to recover data to get the better compression. It ends up looking like the plain HDR10 Layer with the steps I’ve done.

It's also possible that the EL doesn't contribute much in those cases, especially when we are checking on an 8/10-bit SDR display. In my limited experience, the effect of EL is only obvious when the HDR10 BL has clear compression artifacts, e.g. Total Recall 4K by StudioCanal. That's what I checked to make sure my setup was working.

Most of the time, applying the EL shows little effect other than very subtly enhanced shadow contrast.

On a few titles, the HDR10 BL is graded to 1000 nits peak, while the EL expands the grading to 2000 or 4000 nits peak. This is presumably to help non-DV playback chains more easily tone map, given today's display capabilities. Here is an incomplete list.

I think i set it up correctly with all the tools. Boy that was fun to download and setup ha.

So basically I run DoVi_Scripts, and tried a few different workflows:

A) 4 (MKV/BDMV) -> 1 (to Profile 8)
B) 4 (MKV/BDMV) -> 1 (to Profile 7)
C) 4 (MKV/BDMV) -> 2 (to Profile 8)

Are any of these correct to put back the FEL data back into the Base Layer and get the better compression when playing it back and/or taking screenshots (like you showed with Total Recall)

[rrenault]

For what it's worth, the Italian Conformist 4K release does have an issue with slightly out of sync audio in the very first scene. I doubt it's strictly an encoding error, since the out of sync audio is also present on the blu-ray, so it must be baked into the audio track they chose to use for the release. The syncing issue is only present in the very first scene in the bedroom when he's speaking on the telephone.

[rrenault]

Hoping at this point that Arrow will release a nice UHD in the UK. Raro has US rights - if they go 4K this would be their first. Maybe Kino has a say in it but them and Metrograph not releasing Millennium Mambo in 4K is a bummer and maybe a sign for this one as well.

The Conformist seems like a more high profile title than Millennium Mambo though. It's perennially present on top 100 GOAT lists unlike the HHH film, so unless the US distributor deemed the available master to be truly subpar I doubt they'd forgo a 4K release. I could be wrong though.

[nicolas]

For what it's worth, the Italian Conformist 4K release does have an issue with slightly out of sync audio in the very first scene. I doubt it's strictly an encoding error, since the out of sync audio is also present on the blu-ray, so it must be baked into the audio track they chose to use for the release. The syncing issue is only present in the very first scene in the bedroom when he's speaking on the telephone.

Due to the lossy audio, I synced the PCM track of the old BD to the 4K video. While doing this, I noticed the slight error, but to be honest it isn’t that big of a deal. I attributed it to the dub that was performed and the ever so slightly "loose" nature of these tracks. Within these parameters, I think the issue is (close to) negligible.

Eagle has still released a fixed version and upgraded the audio to lossless. According to a BR.com user, Amazon IT doesn’t ship that version as of now, yet independent retailers got stock. I would love to get this version but I absolutely detest that there is no replacement program for buyers of the original release. If the new stock eventually reaches Amazon, I may just order a copy there and return the old one but this last resort measure is certainly something I hate doing. Sure, Amazon doesn’t give a damn but why being so ignorant, Eagle & co. and not ship a handful of replacements for those asking?

[AxeYou]

A) 4 (MKV/BDMV) -> 1 (to Profile 8)
B) 4 (MKV/BDMV) -> 1 (to Profile 7)
C) 4 (MKV/BDMV) -> 2 (to Profile 8)

Are any of these correct to put back the FEL data back into the Base Layer and get the better compression when playing it back and/or taking screenshots (like you showed with Total Recall)

No. Those are still standard DV formats. With Profile 7 you retain (separate) BL, EL, and RPU (tone mapping metadata mostly) in the remuxed output. With Profile 8, you discard the EL. Most file-based playback devices can’t handle EL btw, because they lack a second HEVC hardware decoder to simultaneously decode the EL video stream, in addition to decoding the BL stream.

To take screenshots with full FEL, navigate to “6) MODE.M= MIXED: Remove/Measure/Plot/Audio/Player and more...”, then “8) MODE.8= Screenshot comparisons maker (DoVi_baker and Libplacebo)”. If all your tools are in place, the script will demux the BL, EL, and RPU, and then launch AvsPmod with DoviBaker scripts pre-loaded. Hit F5 and you’ll be able to view the FEL video stream.

[Finch]

nic compares UK and US 4ks of Wings of Desire and the Curzon is better though not ideal either.