1104 Citizen Kane

Discuss DVDs and Blu-rays released by Criterion and the films on them. If it's got a spine number, it's in here. Threads may contain spoilers.
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
Roger Ryan
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:04 pm
Location: A Midland town spread and darkened into a city

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#326 Post by Roger Ryan » Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:15 am

FrauBlucher wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:43 pm
Roger, as this boards' Welles expert what are you most looking forward to from this release?
If I had a 4K TV and player, it would be seeing the resolution/contrast improvement of the UHD disc! Until that happens, I guess the new commentary from Rosenbaum and Naremore has me most interested, along with having an improved version of the BBC documentary (it's a really good one). You never know what you're getting with some of the supplements, but they're all sounding pretty good on paper.

User avatar
Gregor Samsa
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:41 am

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#327 Post by Gregor Samsa » Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:34 am

The listing on Wellesnet has a little more detail on the 1979/1988 television programmes:
• Episode of The South Bank Show from 1988 featuring Mercury Theatre producer John Houseman
• Episode of The Merv Griffin Show from 1979 featuring Welles and Houseman

User avatar
FrauBlucher
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:28 pm
Location: Greenwich Village

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#328 Post by FrauBlucher » Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:54 pm

Via Wellesnet...
Citizen Hearst’ documentary to air on PBS

Citizen Hearst, a two-part, four-hour installment of PBS’ American Experience, details media magnate William Randolph Hearst’s rise and how he became the model for the lead character in Orson Welles’ Citizen Kane.

The film premieres Monday and Tuesday, Sept. 27 and 28 at 9 p.m. on PBS stations.

It is based on historian David Nasaw’s critically acclaimed biography, The Chief: The Life of William Randolph Hearst.

In the 1930s, Hearst’s media empire included 28 newspapers, a movie studio, a syndicated wire service, radio stations and 13 magazines.

Nearly one in four American families read a Hearst publication. His newspapers were so influential that Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini and Winston Churchill all wrote for him.

The first practitioner of what is now known as “synergy,” Hearst used his media stronghold to achieve unprecedented political power, then ran for office himself. After serving two terms in Congress, he came in second in the balloting for the Democratic presidential nomination in 1904.

Perhaps best known as the inspiration for Welles’ Charles Foster Kane and his lavish castle in San Simeon, Hearst died in 1951 at the age of 88, having transformed the media’s role in American life and politics.

User avatar
yoloswegmaster
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:57 pm

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#329 Post by yoloswegmaster » Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:43 am

WB is releasing their own 4K UHD edition in Germany.

User avatar
dwk
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:10 pm

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#330 Post by dwk » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:31 pm


User avatar
soundchaser
Leave Her to Beaver
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:32 am

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#331 Post by soundchaser » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:39 pm

Not for the first time does Harris seem confused on what Dolby Vision is and what it actually does.

User avatar
EddieLarkin
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:25 am

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#332 Post by EddieLarkin » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:51 pm

Indeed. Dolby Vision would not by its nature cause detail to blow out (if anything, the opposite would happen), so if that really is happening then someone involved in the grading made the decision to do it. But I don't know of a single example where detail that is visible on a Blu-ray has been whited out on a UHD EXCEPT in cases where the HDR grade is so bright that certain displays end up fudging the tone mapping. Now the whole point of Dolby Vision is to ensure precisely that doesn't happen regardless of display, but I can't help notice that RAH indicates he watched this on a projector, which of course cannot accept a Dolby Vision signal, and will instead default to HDR10. And projectors as we know are notoriously bad at tonemapping HDR10 and are the exact sort of device that would white out high level nit information that is otherwise visible on a Blu-ray.

Of course this relies on the assumption that Harris didn't bother checking this scene on a different, Dolby Vision capable display, which seems hard to believe, but nothing else makes much sense.

User avatar
hearthesilence
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:22 am
Location: NYC

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#333 Post by hearthesilence » Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:17 pm

EddieLarkin wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:51 pm
Indeed. Dolby Vision would not by its nature cause detail to blow out (if anything, the opposite would happen), so if that really is happening then someone involved in the grading made the decision to do it. But I don't know of a single example where detail that is visible on a Blu-ray has been whited out on a UHD EXCEPT in cases where the HDR grade is so bright that certain displays end up fudging the tone mapping. Now the whole point of Dolby Vision is to ensure precisely that doesn't happen regardless of display, but I can't help notice that RAH indicates he watched this on a projector, which of course cannot accept a Dolby Vision signal, and will instead default to HDR10. And projectors as we know are notoriously bad at tonemapping HDR10 and are the exact sort of device that would white out high level nit information that is otherwise visible on a Blu-ray.

Of course this relies on the assumption that Harris didn't bother checking this scene on a different, Dolby Vision capable display, which seems hard to believe, but nothing else makes much sense.
Someone should tell this to RAH - maybe via PM so that there's less chance of pushback, but just to suggest he try this differently. Otherwise he's going to make the same mistake over and over again...

User avatar
EddieLarkin
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:25 am

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#334 Post by EddieLarkin » Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:42 pm

Well he's now confirmed he is not comparing this to the Blu-ray, so who knows if this particular detail being blown out has anything at all to do with the UHD. It may very well be blown out on both formats and thus instead be a result of the grading.

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#335 Post by tenia » Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:06 pm

soundchaser wrote:Not for the first time does Harris seem confused on what Dolby Vision is and what it actually does.
Harris always seemed to me to have a particularly difficult time assessing things more on the digital aspect of a restoration. He stumbled more than once on not picking up digital issues and definitely has issues understanding and assessing the HDR elements of a UHD release.

He most certainly is very competent on having restorations done, but his home video reviews on the other hand...

User avatar
The Elegant Dandy Fop
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:25 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#336 Post by The Elegant Dandy Fop » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:02 pm

Are there any stills of the new Blu-ray version anywhere? It seems like this particular scene was the scene people discussed when criticizing the old Warner Bros. DVD of this. It’s the reason I held onto my Criterion laserdisc of it for so long because it looked better than the DVD. Seeing how good it looked on the old Warner Blu-ray (already a 4K remaster), it seems odd to screw it up again. It makes me wonder if he has wrong settings on his display?

User avatar
yoloswegmaster
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:57 pm

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#337 Post by yoloswegmaster » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:14 pm

The Elegant Dandy Fop wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:02 pm
Are there any stills of the new Blu-ray version anywhere? It seems like this particular scene was the scene people discussed when criticizing the old Warner Bros. DVD of this. It’s the reason I held onto my Criterion laserdisc of it for so long because it looked better than the DVD. Seeing how good it looked on the old Warner Blu-ray (already a 4K remaster), it seems odd to screw it up again. It makes me wonder if he has wrong settings on his display?
I don't know if anyone else besides RAH has received review copies but the page on the Criterion site has stills from the new restoration.

Chris, can you confirm if review copies for recent Criterion releases have been sent later than usual? Sites like BR.com will have their reviews up weeks (and in some cases a month) before the release date but lately it seems as if the review copies are being sent just before the release.

User avatar
cdnchris
Site Admin
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:45 pm
Location: Washington
Contact:

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#338 Post by cdnchris » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:28 pm

Yes, they've been sent out later than usual, and I assume it's the same for other places, too.

User avatar
FrauBlucher
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:28 pm
Location: Greenwich Village

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#339 Post by FrauBlucher » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:30 pm

RAH probably got a look before everyone else because of his connection to the WB crew. He usually never reviews Criterions before the others

User avatar
EddieLarkin
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:25 am

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#340 Post by EddieLarkin » Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:44 pm

It seems to me RAH is imagining a problem where one doesn't exist.

I suspect the papers appear very bright at that moment on the UHD and it's led to RAH assuming they are "blown out". Fair enough, but then to blame HDR and Dolby Vision, when in fact they would make highlight detail more visible, comes across as quite suspect. Almost as if he was scouring the UHD for anything he could use to demonstrate why "HDR bad for old films".

User avatar
andyli
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:46 pm

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#341 Post by andyli » Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:31 pm

I couldn't figure out why after this many years RAH is still against HDR on older films. Shouldn't the veteran preservationist be the first to admit that film stock *is* the original HDR format? Or does he mean to say all the higher dynamic range captured by the OCN isn't supposed to be preserved because traditionally film post-processing involved multiple printing steps and the higher dynamic range would have been lost in the film prints. This is the only valid reason I can think of. But then again he seems to be alright preserving spatial resolution that would have been lost in film prints with 4K scanning, so why stop there with color information?

nitin
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:49 am

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#342 Post by nitin » Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:40 pm

I think RAH believes HDR to be 'adding' things that were not there, and so a fundamentally incorrect starting point.

User avatar
yoloswegmaster
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:57 pm

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#343 Post by yoloswegmaster » Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:34 am

Someone on the BR forum was able to take a screenshot of the restoration notes from the unboxing video:

Image

I can't seem to recall if the previous 4K restoration was primarily from the same fine-grain master or if they had used multiple sources.

User avatar
Finch
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:09 pm
Location: Edinburgh, UK

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#344 Post by Finch » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:38 am

Beaver (no UHD caps at present, just BD)

User avatar
yoloswegmaster
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:57 pm

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#345 Post by yoloswegmaster » Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:28 pm

Finch wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:38 am
Beaver (no UHD caps at present, just BD)
It's strange that the brightness and contrast levels for the Bluray changes after the first 30 minutes, while the 4K doesn't look anything like the new Blu at all.

User avatar
Tuppence
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:52 am

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#346 Post by Tuppence » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:07 pm

If those caps are accurate (and Gary mentions the issue in his text of his review, so has presumably seen it in motion), this looks like a worst-case-scenario HDR > SDR conversion error for most of the film on the Blu-ray (though the UHD is apparently fine). The contrast in the image just collapses, and no highlights get above a dull grey - you can see it scrolling through Gary's thumbnails at the bottom of the review. I can't believe Criterion would screw up their own holy grail so fundamentally, and I'll wait for more reports, but it's not looking good.

User avatar
FrauBlucher
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:28 pm
Location: Greenwich Village

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#347 Post by FrauBlucher » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:17 pm

Maybe Chris could verify this

User avatar
david hare
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:01 pm
Location: WellyYeller

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#348 Post by david hare » Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:38 pm

Gary’s English is so mangled now I simply cannot understand what, if any issues there are with the UHD. I think Tuppence’s observation of what happened to the 1080p is correct, and frankly it looks unwatchable.

Beyond that though we only have Harris’ review on HDForum. The two shots he mentioned are very clearly evident in the older Warner anniversary Blu from 2016, and frankly I suspect as does he, the first wide shot of the people in the screening room in which Cotton’s face is visible is a timing error which must be burnt into the element they’ve used at this point for the new 4K. But’s it not a deal breaker. The shit quality Blu is, and as an offshore buyer I am lightning ready to cancel the order.
Last edited by david hare on Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
hearthesilence
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:22 am
Location: NYC

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#349 Post by hearthesilence » Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:22 pm

For anyone who needs a regular BD, I wonder if WB's overseas release of this will be fine? (I'll probably be good with the UHD is that isn't messed up.)

User avatar
Altair
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:56 pm
Location: England

Re: 1104 Citizen Kane

#350 Post by Altair » Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:30 pm

Will this new BD be even that superior to the existing Warner BD that has been out for years? DVDBeaver's caps suggest the differences will be minor at best (ignoring for the moment the incorrect HDR to SDR conversion).

Post Reply