Anime

[moviscop]

I have always had difficulty enjoying and getting into anime. Keep in mind this examination is not bashing the genre, I'm just expressing the stigma in my mind. Anime, to me, seems like lazy animation. I have never been able to understand why one frame of animation allows for paragraphs of dialogue with only mouth movement. Also, I don't enjoy the fan-fare that seems to be laced in every show. They always have to throw in a nude and voluptuous woman either looking seductively innocent or menacing.

I have tried viewing differerent anime but have difficulty seeing an artform in it. I see it as wank material for malicious masturbators who happen to be computer nerds. I apologize for stereotypes, but again, I'm just expressing my feelings regarding the types of people who have tried making recommendations to me in the past.

Any advice on how I could begin accepting the genre as an art?

[colinr0380]

I have tried viewing differerent anime but have difficulty seeing an artform in it. I see it as wank material for malicious masturbators who happen to be computer nerds.

Your point being? I think the word you are looking for to describe anime fans (at least that is how is has been used in the west) is otaku! There's even an anime about anime obsession!

[Michael Kerpan]

Any advice on how I could begin accepting the genre as an art?

I consider 95% (at least) of what is categorized as anime as junk. Then again, I class about the same amount of _every_ categorizable kind of art similarly. Until I know what you have seen -- and deemed worthless -- I can't provide much advice. If you toss the work of Takahata and Miyazaki in the dust bin, then there would seem to be no point to any sort of recommendations. On the other hand, if you have only seen pornographic hentai anime and/or witless children's anime, then writing off this medium would seem a bit premature. ;~}

[jojo]

Anime, to me, seems like lazy animation. I have never been able to understand why one frame of animation allows for paragraphs of dialogue with only mouth movement.

It's true that anime is produced rather quickly, especially TV anime, but there is no way anime can compete with the budgets of Western animation, hence the reason for the lower frame count. There are a few animation experts who estimated that you could make 3 Cowboy Bebop episodes with the budget of 1 Futurama episode. And Cowboy Bebop was, in its time, considered one of the biggest budgeted TV anime that ever aired!

That said, it's probably true that if you just walking into a store and picked up an anime at random, chances are you'll get some kind of fan pandering drivel. There are good ones, but you have to develop an eye for weeding out the crap.

I've been saying that being an anime fan is high risk, low reward buying at its best. You pay more for new anime than other DVDs, but at the same time you get less money back when you want to sell them.

[colinr0380]

We also have to be aware that one person's "crappy animation where the mouths don't move" is another's "beautifully stylised, minimalist approach to dialogue and character design"!

Personally I love the inventive ways found to disguise mouths so movements don't have to be animated (either having a hand or drink to the mouth, or shooting a character from the back). Not everything can be at the budget level of Akira or a Miyazaki film with the associated amount of time to spend on the details. I'm often amazed at the detailing that goes into even mid-range anime titles and of course if a cheat is done effectively then sometimes the limitations can be part of the charm!

I would agree with jojo on the costs issues though. I know it is not really a fair comparison to make considering the relative costs to licence, subtitle, dub and produce extras for anime but at a time when you can get whole seasons of television shows for £40, £20 for one volume of three or four episodes of one series can seem a little steep.

[Michael Kerpan]

You should see what (live action, unsubbed) Japanese TV series cost. Really quite prohibitive.

[moviscop]

I have heard good things about Ghost In A Shell.

Is this film quality?

[Michael Kerpan]

I have heard good things about Ghost In A Shell.

Is this film quality?

Not my cup of tea, so I wouldn't presume to say.

[moviscop]

I did try watching Elfen Lied until I got to the episode that began with fan-fare which made me just shake my head.

I mean, it just seems like gratuitous nudity etc. for the wrong reasons.

It doesn't seem like a pure form of art when so much is thrown in to make the audience salivate.

[Michael Kerpan]

Elfen Lied is the kind of show I make a point of avoiding.

Have you seen any of the major Miyazaki and Takahata films? (I don't think you ever said).

[Darth Lavender]

I have heard good things about Ghost In A Shell.

Is this film quality?

I'll say yes, but it's hard to give anything a full, resounding 'must see' recommendation, so I'll try to elaborate on a few points that may interest you...

- While it was (I think) the single most expensive Japanese film of it's time (or, at least, breaking all kinds of records for an anime budget) it really takes the 'minimalist' animation to the extreme. Because, most of the time, characters are communicating over internal-radio-things, you don't even see mouth movement.
It takes the anime penchant for filling a movie with various philosophy references (with varying degrees of thought behind them) to the extreme. When dialogue reaches a certain level of 'intellectual' it becomes increasingly difficult to tell if the writer is being profound or just trying to sound clever with lots of big words. I happen to like that, either way (even if the writer doesn't know what he's talking about, it will at least give my own mind some exercise trying to make sense of it. And that 'mental exercise' is one of the main reasons I go to movies. The film was a very big influence on The Matrix (I suspect that Carrie-Anne Moss was cast at least partly for her resemblance to GitS's lead character) so that will give you some idea what to expect (it was also very heavily influenced by Blade Runner)

I'm kind of moving into a general defense of anime, so I'll just say "Ghost in the Shell" is well worth considering. It actually embodies a lot of your complaints (minimal movement, fan-service (lot of nudity in the first film, and Kusanagi is ridiculously proportioned through-out) so perhaps that makes it a good recommendation simply because it rises above those 'problems' (and/or uses them well)

Alternatively, for anime that goes against most of your expectations, I would strongly suggest the 'other' classic, Akira. Detailed animation, with a complex story but never falling back on the 'static images' approach. The Director is also somewhat unique among anime artists in that he insists on drawing 'plain looking' female characters (feeling that the 'fanservice' type are too cliche)

Moving on to the general subject... Fan-service is a bit of a nuissance throughout anime, to varying degrees. Some series manage to avoid it almost entirely, or use it in an interesting way (perhaps because I had just injured my back when I started watching it, I was feeling genuinely sorry for the over-endowed female lead in 'Gantz,' and the attention she tended to attract (making her first appearance untintentionally nude, being spontaneously raped, etc.) Given the series' themes, I suspect these were deliberate choices designed to use the fan-service stereotypes in a new and more thought-provoking way.)

There was an interesting case of 'fan-service' making the Prime Minister in Ghost in the Shell 2nd Gig a (in my opinion) better character design. The animators wanted someone older, the producers wanted a stereotypical 'hot,' girl. The result was a young, generically 'hot,' girl, with middle-aged wrinkles under her eyes. I thought it was an interesting effect, and a fine piece of character design. I mentioned 'Akira,' which manages to avoid fan-service. There's probably a tiny number of other anime like that ('Paranoia Agent' is a good example) At the other end of the spectrum, I recently watched a series called "Rosario + Vampire," which took the fan-service to such an extreme as to be quite entertaining as comedy (the quantity of 'panty shots,' etc. There was a clever little moment in Apocalypse Now Redux were one of the 'playmates' complains that nobody is interested in her personality, while Coppola keeps the camera firmly focused on her breasts. Rosario + Vampire had, intentionally or unintentionally, some of the same humor.

While I've only been able to suggest 'Gantz' as a series that really uses "fan-service" concepts in a genuinely thought-provoking and artistic way, there is another facet to the phenomena that I think merits discussion.
The mere fact of being a very detailed presentation of the fantasies and secret day-dreams of a specific subset of people makes it genuinely fascinating to me, as an unintentional study on the psychology of fantasy.
I'll end this particular subject, with a Godard quote that I've never agreed with; "Cinema has always been about boys photographing beautiful girls"

As to the minimal movement, well, actually, I've just realised how long I've been typing... I think I'll comment more later.

[ianungstad]

Is Galaxy Express on DVD anywhere with english subtitles or dub?

I loved the Galaxy Express/Harlock films as a child. I would like to rediscover them but am a little uncertain about how well they hold up to an adult audience.

[Cosmic Bus]

Any advice on how I could begin accepting the genre as an art?

I didn't quite have the same view as yours, but my opinion was seemingly validated by the fact that I didn't particularly care for animation in general, wasn't interested in the anime staples of giant robots, fan-service, ultra-violence, etc. and my prior exposure was limited to some less-than-appealing examples.

The one that really opened my eyes was Mind Game. It was just... unlike anything else I'd ever encountered. After seeing this, I read up on some series that were thematically and stylisticly similar to films I enjoy, and have since come to appreciate anime as a wholy legitimate form of storytelling, filmmaking, and certainly as an art.

Michael Kerpan's suggestions from the first page of this thread were quite valuable to me, as were some of the others (although, to my surprise, I really disliked Perfect Blue despite my love of Hitchcock), and would absolutely (re)recommend Haibane Renmei, Kino's Journey, Texhnolyze and Serial Experiments: Lain if you're looking for truly intelligent fare that avoids most, if not all, of the negative stigma that can be associated with anime culture.

[moviscop]

I appreciate the time you guys took to write your posts and I did read them.

I will start to check out some of the stuff you recommended. I think I will begin by watching Akira.

Again, thank you for the recommendations.

[colinr0380]

- While it was (I think) the single most expensive Japanese film of it's time (or, at least, breaking all kinds of records for an anime budget) it really takes the 'minimalist' animation to the extreme. Because, most of the time, characters are communicating over internal-radio-things, you don't even see mouth movement.

I wonder whether that was meant to be a comment on anime or whether that would be reading too much into it! Either way I like the idea of being able to conduct internal dialogues while superficially saying something else through your physical body! While the feature films are completely separate from the TV series I would also recommend checking the series out - it is a more accessible, but no less complicated, take on the same world with some nifty call backs to famous moments from the first film used in completely different contexts. I like the second season much more than the first (and the film that came after, Solid State Society, just as much as the second season). In the second season the main antagonist (he couldn't exactly be called a villain) is someone with a completely immobile, mask-like face. Again it can be seen as an in joke about anime characteristics but at the same time, with the character becoming a messiah-like figure it leads to suggestions of his lack of physical response to people lets his followers impose themselves onto him (which gains in resonance later when he is planning to 'store' their ghosts on-line when their physical bodies are destroyed). It also makes the character's final moments, when he physically moves his mouth to say his final line, extremely powerful.

It certainly gets into the idea of disembodiment that the prosthetically enhanced characters are feeling - when do you become something less/more/different than a 'normal' human being? When your body is little more than a shell that you can trade in for a different shaped, or different sexed, model? That is just the starting point for the first film which is mostly concerned with the next barrier being crossed, how you can be sure your brain and consciousness are real or whether it is just a more complex form of computer that can be 'hacked'.

Anyway I love the Hong Kong montage sequence in the middle of the first film, with the film getting inside Motoko's detachment and alienation from the rest of the world - the comparison with the featureless shop dummies is particularly touching, both in story terms as well as maybe making a wider comment on the interchangability of anime characteristics.

moviscop, you should also be aware with Akira though that the film is so packed with incident due to the way it is a condensation and relative streamlining of an enormous manga. I've never read the manga though and love the film so it should not be a huge obstacle! It is another one of those 'comfort' films that I find constantly rewatchable!

[Darth Lavender]

Akira does get a little difficult to follow towards the end, mainly with the nature of 'Akira' (the characters go off into vague metaphorical descriptions, when what a first-time viewer really wants at that point is a clear sentence or two describing the plot background)

As for Ghost in the Shell, yes, that is a definite contender for my favourite anime of all time, mainly for the complexity of the stories (I'm a real sucker for those 'psychological chess games.' I would argue that the movie is easiest to get into, simply because it's only 1 eighty-minute film, that one can rewatch a few times to get a better understanding of the plot and ideas. I have the whole thing (two theatrical movies, two series, and 1 tv movie) on DVDs and just rewatched it all earlier this year.

Incidentally, there's also references to the original manga in the tv series (most prominantly, at the end of 2nd Gig, with the Fuchikomas and the cherry blossoms. That's an homage to the first page of the manga)
(The manga itself is somewhat interesting, but it feels like a first draft. Art-work is crude, it's full of footnotes and difficult to follow. Some fine ideas, but clumsily presented.) Further piece of trivia, 'Appleseed' is considered a distant sequel to Ghost in the Shell (both manga written by the same person. He regards Appleseed as taking place in the same world, but many years later)

[akaten]

Anyway I love the Hong Kong montage sequence in the middle of the first film, with the film getting inside Motoko's detachment and alienation from the rest of the world - the comparison with the featureless shop dummies is particularly touching, both in story terms as well as maybe making a wider comment on the interchangability of anime characteristics.

Been having a similar discussion with cde about Ghost in the Shell about these issues, though we started talking about the use of CGI (and from my point of view its poor ill defined purpose in Innocence) later went into wideer issues, will ask if its ok to post some of it up. One of the features that initially led to my interest in Oshii is his thoughts on urban development and alienation within these environments, as in Patlabor (the first in particular) films and the first Ghost in the Shell was this sense of existing within our world today this fantastic science fiction element, grounding them so to speak in something compemporary.

This is what I find to lacking in the sequel Innocence, the sense of location Hong Kong is lost, as the film moves to a new generic Blade Runner city in the north and though there are moments of genuine interest of the internal disenfranchisement of Batou (ballistic scene with the ominous bagged dolls on coat racks being a highlight of the film) and it does address issues of sex, impotence (is Batou Oshii himself, his best friend being Oshii's dog) I feel its a confused and rather lacklustre film from a director no longer interested in the material, but unlike Patlabor 2 doesn't know how to adequately convey this within the text at hand.

Incidentally it seems Oshii is 'remaking' the first Ghost in the Shell (called 2.0) and it looks dreadful, altering the perspective and removing depth of field for the sake of adding CGI makes me angry even to think about it as it takes many of the compositions, and stylistic features which make them memorable I recently championed (Indiana thread) and casts them aside, have to seriously question whether my serious advocacy of his work is misguided.

BTW for those interested in Gits have you seen the videogame released soon after the first film, like an alternative 90s version of Stand Alone Complex, more comic as well, Batou being surprisingly goofy in the animated interludes.

Looking at the entry about what (if anything) makes anime art, using this example above, on a formal level anime is what I think of as partial animation, due to its close ties with manga and low budgets, creative artists use these limitations to their advantages, largely static profile shots (higher detail than could be animated) but with subtle gestures and incidental features to liven up the scene.

Serial Experiment Lain that Michael Kerpan put visually stunning, I think the best aspects of it were the outside shots, usually at a distance with the shadows with purple spotted textures, and the increasing digital enchroachment on our world (the shadowy figures in her home) with overhead poles emitting droning noises as a small figures navigates these barren landscapes, low budget works that inventively work around this are on a formal level at least, fascinating to me when watching cel animation of any nationality.

Even if you find shows to be thematically clumsy and uninspired (as I do with Lain for instance) they can still be greatly rewarding to watch, though I must admit I haven't seen many recent shows, recommend Flag and Mushi-shi...ideally in the case of the latter by comparing the manga of Mushi-shi with the episodic structure, designs and editing of the show.

[Michael Kerpan]

I'd say that Lain was thematically "erratic"-- but that the execution mostly made up for this. Besides, my theory is that much of what people think is "thematic" in Lain is actually mostly "local color". Focusing on mood and atmosphere rather than themes makes this a whole lot more satisfying (this approach carried over -- equally satisfactorily -- to my reception of Kiyoshi Kurosawa's films).

[Quot]

The one that really opened my eyes was Mind Game. It was just... unlike anything else I'd ever encountered. After seeing this, I read up on some series that were thematically and stylisticly similar to films I enjoy, and have since come to appreciate anime as a wholy legitimate form of storytelling, filmmaking, and certainly as an art.

Complete agreement on Mind Game. With Studio 4°C's track record, it's a shame this hasn't gotten a region 1 release yet. I'd be hard-pressed to think of another animated film, anime or otherwise, that's as ambitious or as life-affirming. It's really a great film.

[akaten]

I'd say that Lain was thematically "erratic"-- but that the execution mostly made up for this. Besides, my theory is that much of what people think is "thematic" in Lain is actually mostly "local color". Focusing on mood and atmosphere rather than themes makes this a whole lot more satisfying (this approach carried over -- equally satisfactorily -- to my reception of Kiyoshi Kurosawa's films).

Indeed, Lain plays to the strengths of the form (and though I haven't seen any Kiyoshi Kurosawa films myself to comment on, I do sometimes feel that many films directors of today style is very much a by product of the advent of television) immediacy of tone and feel, essential to offset attention deficit, a constant threat to viewing figures, and the means it is delivered, studio produced work for television slots, that we're even discussing the merit of 'mere telly' is a testament to the talent of those involved. It also masks limitations, that air of diletante about them, of being arty but not particularly artistic or enlightened in their handling, but at least they raise issues of interest, more than can be said of what passes for speculative fiction works on television in the West.

Still I feel that it is right to put shows like these to task for their inadequate handling of the wider issues they raise, the problematic nature of advocating social connections while being unable to reconcile this within the text of the reliance upon these anti-social tendancies that form the basis of such shows; perhaps in large part due to the time intensive nature of animation production.

One curious aspect of Lain, and I think this gets at a larger trend in anime is that they attempt to speak to children, teenagers and young adults (I'm being broad as I'm ill-informed as to the exact nature of when it was shown and who it was shown to in Japan) the paedophilia issue is raised, but rather than the issue itself and the causes behind it (a missed opportunity for some cutting self-reflexivity in my opinion) the episode does so in the issue of trust between friends and of using the worldwide web to spread gossip anonymously around those nearest to you.

Even in shounen (as in boys?) those amusing drawn out, lock jawed epidemic ridden nonsense can such things be present, in Full Metal Alchemist, the Alchemist entry exams being associated with ability, those who try hardest often fail while others cruise by, is overtly a reference to Japan's notoriously difficult entry examinations.

[jojo]

As for Akira, I thought that if you stripped away all the mumbo-jumbo, the film works simply and beautifully as an allegory of adolescence out of control. Of course, in my mind it's still the best animated anime of all time.

Ghost in the Shell--I'm not a big fan of the movies, but I love the Stand Alone Complex TV series. It paints a picture of a socially dense world that comes closer to a PK Dick novel than any sci-fi film or TV show I've ever seen. I don't make a big deal about gorgeously drawn heroines, because most classic live action movies use impossibly gorgeous actresses in order to attract audiences as well. Most women simply do not look like Claudia Cardinale, Setsuko Hara, Sophia Loren, or Grace Kelly.

So Kusanagi walking around with her body in full display isn't bothersome to me. In fact, since her body is cybernetic and she pays good money for it (the series makes a point to show how advanced her body is compared to other cyborgs in the show), why SHOULDN'T she try to show it off? It's not like she's bouncing up and down and squealing like a loli anyway.

[Darth Lavender]

I don't make a big deal about gorgeously drawn heroines, because most classic live action movies use impossibly gorgeous actresses in order to attract audiences as well. Most women simply do not look like Claudia Cardinale, Setsuko Hara, Sophia Loren, or Grace Kelly.

So Kusanagi walking around with her body in full display isn't bothersome to me. In fact, since her body is cybernetic and she pays good money for it (the series makes a point to show how advanced her body is compared to other cyborgs in the show), why SHOULDN'T she try to show it off? It's not like she's bouncing up and down and squealing like a loli anyway.

Good point. As for Kusanagi, there actually was an amusing/silly little scene in Ghost in the Shell were Batou asks her why she doesn't just use a big, muscular body. Kusanagi answers by challenging Batou to a fight; she smiles at him and Batou loses the will the punch her.
That's some pretty broad humor (in fact, Batou punches himself, bringing the scene well into Looney Tunes territory,) but in Kusanagi's case it does present a very good reason for her appearance. In a lot of ways, being a beautiful woman will make her more effective at getting information out of people, etc.
For that matter, Stand Alone Complex made a big deal about Gohda's (one of my absolute favourite characters; reminds me a little of me ) not choosing to have his horribly mutilated face replaced/repaired.
To get really pedantic, though, I will end on a minor note and say that technically Kusanagi didn't pay for the body herself. There's a lot of talk about how Section 9's members quite literally belong to the government (since their cybernetic bodies, etc. were paid for by the government)

[jojo]

To get really pedantic, though, I will end on a minor note and say that technically Kusanagi didn't pay for the body herself. There's a lot of talk about how Section 9's members quite literally belong to the government (since their cybernetic bodies, etc. were paid for by the government)

You're right. A slip up on my part--I meant to stress the fact that Kusanagi enjoys showing her body off, so the shameless displays of exhibitionism is actually in-character (for once in an anime).

[colinr0380]

Still on the Ghost In The Shell series, I did find this interesting interview with the director of the show, which describes very well the different approaches taken by the TV series and the film. I would agree though that the second series worked better due to that feeling of the characters having escaped somewhat from their ties to the manga and film characters to grow in their own way.

The S.A.C. series, when compared to MiniPato, was not only a total copy of Director Oshii's style, but I also wanted to express my respect for Shirow Masamune. So I decided to make something that was like a "cousin" to the movie and manga versions.
At the time, people were also working on Innocence at I.G, so I decided that I would not cut ties with the Oshii Ghost in the Shell. Even then, the finished product showed a slight but definite deviation.
In the first Patlabor movie, Oshii-san made Noa, the main character, say, "There are no humans!" And 15 years later, he made the movie Innocence where there are almost no human beings. I felt that human beings had finally disappeared from Oshii-san's consciousness.
For the past four years, while working on the S.A.C. series, I tried to avoid speaking with Oshii-san. Even when I had questions, I didn't ask him for his ideas.
The result was that Oshii's Ghost in the Shell world, and this includes Innocence, no longer had humans in it, while my S.A.C. decidedly featured "humanity."
I wasn't actually conscious of it, but I asked the voice actors to portray the eager members of Section 9 as 15 years younger than the characters in the Ghost in the Shell movie. I also tried to turn Motoko and Aramaki into more down-to-earth characters.
When the production was over, the story turned out to be about offering hope for the humans, even though I understood Oshii-san's sense of taking out the humans, as in his film.
...
As I tried to figure out how to direct an anime series, I often ended up in a dead-end without anyone to help me. Oshii-san wasn't around either.
Given these circumstances, I found myself gradually developing the Aramaki character as someone who would be like my ideal boss.
Also, from my standpoint as a director, I understood the sorts of issues and difficulties facing Aramaki. Being the leader of a team, you realize that you have to be decisive for the sake of the group, even if you know you could be wrong.

After a while, Aramaki began to take over. The anime director and the section chief of Section 9 coexisted within me and made a connection with each other.
It was also like that for "Laughing Man", an original character we created for S.A.C.
The crime he committed and the work of Section 9 were fundamentally the same: "Effect justice against an unseen crime." Nevertheless, he winds up being a criminal and Section 9 is treated like a group of heroes. The difference is where they belong. If the Laughing Man was a member of Section 9, no problem. But since he was just an ordinary citizen, he had no authority to do such things. He reminds me of myself as a teenager and in my 20's, which I wouldn't care to remember