Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

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domino harvey
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1326 Post by domino harvey » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:44 pm


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McCrutchy
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1327 Post by McCrutchy » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:27 am

I cannot believe that Solo is two months away, and it feels like Disney/Lucasfilm have done virtually nothing to promote it. From the couple of trailers I have seen, I have zero interest in seeing it, but I do wonder if the film really is that bad, and if audiences will even care.

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Big Ben
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1328 Post by Big Ben » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:47 am

McCrutchy wrote:I cannot believe that Solo is two months away, and it feels like Disney/Lucasfilm have done virtually nothing to promote it. From the couple of trailers I have seen, I have zero interest in seeing it, but I do wonder if the film really is that bad, and if audiences will even care.
Who knows? Perhaps we've got this centuries 2001 on our hands.

All rumors coming out of the studios say that Disney is preparing for the absolute worst.

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domino harvey
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1329 Post by domino harvey » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:26 pm

After being scared away by the lameness of Rogue One and the effusive negativity of many board members here towards Star Wars: the Last Jedi, I finally caught up with it and I def regret skipping this one in theatres. Will not be making the same mistake for the final installment. A huge shout out to user who is bobby dylan for his ability to engage some of the most needlessly cruel and mean-spirited “criticisms” I’ve ever seen on this forum coming from a handful of members. I don’t think this film is the great masterpiece some of its more fervent defenders claim (mostly elsehwhere), and I don’t think it’s quite as good as the Force Awakens, but it is well-made, entertaining, and flirts with some larger and more interesting ideas than the previous installment. I also liked that the entire film unfolds over a limited timeframe of something like one or two days (little hard to gauge). Adam Driver’s Kylo Ren is a compelling villain, much more so now that he’s complicated the predominant readings of the first film. The wonderful shared space he and Daisy Ridley’s Rey exchange for the first half of the film is a clever and unexpected device that works well, especially when its true purpose is revealed.

I’m surprised there’s so much flack from the right about the perceived “SJW”-ness of the film, given that the “twist” here is that it turns out anyone can be a Jedi and it is no longer preordained like royalty lineage. Isn’t this the great right wing ideal, that anyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps and be someone by virtue of their actions?

Along these lines, I did some brief Google searching on responses to the film and was appalled by the hateful comments the Kelly Marie Tran character garnered. It is hard to see these comments as anything else but either sexism or racism or both. I think most of you reading this know I’m usually hesitant to jump to these conclusions, but it’s difficult to see what else about her or her character could possibly set off a certain contingent of male audience members, other than that they didn’t want to fuck her for reason x y z.

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Drucker
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1330 Post by Drucker » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:45 pm

domino harvey wrote:I’m surprised there’s so much flack from the right about the perceived “SJW”-ness of the film, given that the “twist” here is that it turns out anyone can be a Jedi and it is no longer preordained like royalty lineage. Isn’t this the great right wing ideal, that anyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps and be someone by virtue of their actions?
I have not seen this film, but if you read the writings of Corey Robin, namely: The Reactionary Mind, part of his thesis is that while the right claims to believe what you've described, in earnest they actually have a preference for "natural" hierarchy, and believe the powerful should rule over the less powerful.

So it may not be as surprising as you described.

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Big Ben
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1331 Post by Big Ben » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:45 pm

A reminder that there was that case of the Men's Right's Activist who got so Mad Online™ he edited the film down to forty six minutes, editing out all the women he could.

The film grossed over a billion dollars. While totally expected it really destroys the idea that the film was a some sort of disaster. I think the most vocal backlash (NOT people with legitimate criticism) is just a combination of several things that really ended up being appearing far worse than it actually was. I've no doubt the last film in this new trilogy will make big bucks too. And LucasFilm obviously has no problems with Rian Johnson either as they handed him the keys to a trilogy of his own.

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domino harvey
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1332 Post by domino harvey » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:52 pm

That is hilariously awful:
“Leia never scolds, questions nor demotes Poe. He is a respected and very skilled high-ranking member of the resistance.“
Not to mention how apparently they completely remove another female character for being to mean to a male character but in this edit the guy actually dies!

Drucker, that sounds like a compelling thesis, I'll have to look into the book

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McCrutchy
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1333 Post by McCrutchy » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:54 pm

I'm just honestly surprised that so many people see The Last Jedi as this daring, dark blockbuster. I didn't get that sense at all, and I found it to have an extremely noticeable corporate agenda, namely to extinguish the Skywalker-era narrative, and to advance several other new characters into potential other films. To some extent, obviously, this is unavoidable in the latest entry of a franchise, but the absoluteness of it all, the way that certain characters seemed invincible, while others seemed to have a target on their head/ticking clock from the moment they stepped onscreen, was what really grated on me. Combine that with the fact that much of the humor--which is always subjective--didn't work for me, and you have a film that drops from good, to decidedly mediocre, and while I was not a big fan of The Force Awakens at all, I did think The Last Jedi basically took the trilogy in the wrong direction, right from the first scene. I don't think anyone can deny it's a technically impressive film, but being impressed by the story, which feels like it was rubber-stamped by Disney as part of a "Star Wars: The Next 25 Years" investor meeting, is something else entirely.

And while I don't understand labeling it as too much of an "SJW film", I didn't really need to have Jedi-ness spelled out for me like that. Growing up with Star Wars, I never felt like the Jedi were some exclusive club that only certain people could belong to--maybe not everyone could be a Jedi, but surely most people, with effort, could be--but I did always feel that the potential needed to be awakened, and shouldn't be inherent in anyone (except perhaps under very particular circumstances). So that bit with the kid at the end, it just felt like the writers were trying to show off to the audience.

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Big Ben
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1334 Post by Big Ben » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:09 pm

Of course Disney plans on making more films. It would be silly to act as if Star Wars hasn't been milked like the Wonder Cow that it is from day one. Need I remind everyone of this atrocity? Star Wars has always been all over the place. Toys. Games. Books. . Disney is just ensuring that we'll have more of it until the end of existence. It's just and extension of what we've had before. There is just likely to be more of it now.

Totally real image of the Holiday Special and proof that Star Wars has always had dumb shit.

Image

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Brian C
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1335 Post by Brian C » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:33 pm

Big Ben wrote:Of course Disney plans on making more films. It would be silly to act as if Star Wars hasn't been milked like the Wonder Cow that it is from day one. Need I remind everyone of this atrocity? Star Wars has always been all over the place. Toys. Games. Books. . Disney is just ensuring that we'll have more of it until the end of existence. It's just and extension of what we've had before. There is just likely to be more of it now.
I'm afraid I have to agree with this. I mean, on one hand I can completely understand McCrutchy's complaints about the corporate-product feel of this. But still, complaining that this movie is uniquely corporate-driven feels a little bit like a kid finding out that there's no Santa Claus. If anything, my disappointment is that Johnson wasn't able to distinguish the film enough from the corporate mediocrity that I've associated with the franchise for a long time now.

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MoonlitKnight
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1336 Post by MoonlitKnight » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:59 pm

At least Lucas understood the concept of 'absence makes the heart grow fonder,' since he didn't feel the need to keep churning out SW movies once the OT was completed, ultimately waiting around 15 years until jumping back into it. Di$ney is running the risk of oversaturation... and the increasing number of longtime fans getting pissed off about the direction they're taking the franchise isn't helping their cause. It's becoming more obvious by the day they never really intended to uphold Lucas' vision of this universe he created but rather exploit it for nostalgia purposes while gradually phasing it out in favor of their own (which, again, seems to amount to basically turning it into 'Marvel in Space' -- or perhaps 'Harry Potter in Space'), because, well, [in the voice and manner of a prickish gloating child:] It's ours now! It's ours now!! We can do what we want with it! Na-na-na-na-boo-boo!!!. :|

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DarkImbecile
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1337 Post by DarkImbecile » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:18 pm

I will never understand Star Wars people.

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domino harvey
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1338 Post by domino harvey » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:23 pm

I will ban without mercy the next user to unironically spell Disney with a dollar sign

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1339 Post by MoonlitKnight » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:34 pm

DarkImbecile wrote:I will never understand Star Wars people.
I'll never understand 'superhero' people. I suppose we all have our blockbuster franchise blind spots, so to speak.

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Shrew
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1340 Post by Shrew » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:34 am

TLJ is certainly more corporate product than auteur masterpiece, but I really don't understand the complaints about how it's "too Marvel". What does that even mean? That it's moving away from trilogies to more episodic stories? Would people have preferred the old Expanded Universe strategy of endless stakeless repeats, eventually resorting to some bizarre alien invasion to spice things up? And then there's this authorial nonsense rarefying Lucas's "grand vision" (which of course never altered from the grand Starkiller saga he set down in 1974). One of the weirdest aspects of Last Jedi's reception is how the prequels have somehow become sacrosanct (perhaps because TLJ takes dead aim at the some unsettling aspects of the Jedi seen in those films). There are points in all this I agree with (this new trilogy may have benefited from the standard 3-year gap, and Rogue One's problems stem largely from a rushed script that seemed to go through several drafts in the middle of filming), but the fan reaction is so hung up on weird contradictory details (often unfortunately gendered) when really the issue is that the film actively challenged so many expectations and assumptions.
SpoilerShow
As for the corporate machine angle, I can easily imagine Johnson pitching "I want to kill Luke Skywalker" and Disney eating it up, but Luke tossing aside his lightsaber is anything but corporate whitewash.

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McCrutchy
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1341 Post by McCrutchy » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:16 am

Brian C wrote:
Big Ben wrote:Of course Disney plans on making more films. It would be silly to act as if Star Wars hasn't been milked like the Wonder Cow that it is from day one. Need I remind everyone of this atrocity? Star Wars has always been all over the place. Toys. Games. Books. . Disney is just ensuring that we'll have more of it until the end of existence. It's just and extension of what we've had before. There is just likely to be more of it now.
I'm afraid I have to agree with this. I mean, on one hand I can completely understand McCrutchy's complaints about the corporate-product feel of this. But still, complaining that this movie is uniquely corporate-driven feels a little bit like a kid finding out that there's no Santa Claus. If anything, my disappointment is that Johnson wasn't able to distinguish the film enough from the corporate mediocrity that I've associated with the franchise for a long time now.
I never said "uniquely". There is plenty of corporate-driven material related to Star Wars, the most blatant of which in terms of the original trilogy is probably the Holiday Special, which is horrendously dated and of its moment (I never engaged with Star Wars outside of film/television, so possibly there is written material or other merchandise which is even more ridiculous). But The Last Jedi, as slick as it is, feels like it could end up being just as dated in a couple decades time. Obviously, the film could end up looking better if Episode IX is some kind of miracle film that ties everything together and provides a satisfying conclusion to all six films, while leaving people excited to eventually get more films in the future, but that's an incredibly tall order, and based on The Force Awakens, I don't think Abrams is going to pull it off, certainly not in one movie.

However, I must say I don't understand the comparison to Marvel films, either. Obviously, Marvel films are to some extent ripping off fantasy franchises in general with their exhausting "extended universe" nonsense, but anything Star Wars is probably still distinctive enough to be its own thing, even if the new films suffer from a bit too much present day tone and perspective. Of all the problems the Disney Star Wars films face, and I would argue that there are a few serious ones, tripping over Disney's Marvel films isn't one of them, although the way all these films are going, we sadly can't rule that out for future films. In fact, it's probably a matter of time before somebody thinks it's a good idea, if they haven't already.

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Luke M
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1342 Post by Luke M » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:14 am

domino harvey wrote:After being scared away by the lameness of Rogue One and the effusive negativity of many board members here towards Star Wars: the Last Jedi, I finally caught up with it and I def regret skipping this one in theatres. Will not be making the same mistake for the final installment. A huge shout out to user who is bobby dylan for his ability to engage some of the most needlessly cruel and mean-spirited “criticisms” I’ve ever seen on this forum coming from a handful of members. I don’t think this film is the great masterpiece some of its more fervent defenders claim (mostly elsehwhere), and I don’t think it’s quite as good as the Force Awakens, but it is well-made, entertaining, and flirts with some larger and more interesting ideas than the previous installment. I also liked that the entire film unfolds over a limited timeframe of something like one or two days (little hard to gauge). Adam Driver’s Kylo Ren is a compelling villain, much more so now that he’s complicated the predominant readings of the first film. The wonderful shared space he and Daisy Ridley’s Rey exchange for the first half of the film is a clever and unexpected device that works well, especially when its true purpose is revealed.

I’m surprised there’s so much flack from the right about the perceived “SJW”-ness of the film, given that the “twist” here is that it turns out anyone can be a Jedi and it is no longer preordained like royalty lineage. Isn’t this the great right wing ideal, that anyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps and be someone by virtue of their actions?

Along these lines, I did some brief Google searching on responses to the film and was appalled by the hateful comments the Kelly Marie Tran character garnered. It is hard to see these comments as anything else but either sexism or racism or both. I think most of you reading this know I’m usually hesitant to jump to these conclusions, but it’s difficult to see what else about her or her character could possibly set off a certain contingent of male audience members, other than that they didn’t want to fuck her for reason x y z.
The criticism I’ve seen on the internet has been dominated by people who really hate it and constantly want to let you know why, while the people who liked it only sorta enjoyed it. No one’s going to make it the hill they die on against mobs of angry fan boys. You can see the hate almost everywhere even Wal-Mart reviews for the blu-ray (which by all technical merits is a top notch disc.) These people are going out of their way to tell anyone that’ll listen they think it’s bad.

As someone who grew up watching the movies more times than I can count, I’ve always identified somewhat with other fans but that ended with the reaction of TLJ.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1343 Post by swo17 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:35 pm

Fanboys--sometimes I wish I could just put my fist through the whole lot of them.

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tenia
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1344 Post by tenia » Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:49 pm

Luke M wrote:The criticism I’ve seen on the internet has been dominated by people who really hate it and constantly want to let you know why, while the people who liked it only sorta enjoyed it.
In a way, it's not very re-assuring. Movies I love, I could go on and on about how and why I love them. Stuff I kind of enjoy ? I'll probably have forgotten about them next week.
But it's also a very human thing to do. The most vocal people are always the complaining ones. At least, this time, they were able to articulate why.
swo17 wrote:Fanboys--sometimes I wish I could just put my fist through the whole lot of them.
Honestly, it's a bit frustrating to see the fanboys being brought up all the time, as if you have to be a fanboy to dislike the movie or to find grounds for complaints. I like Star Wars, it's part of the movies I'm seeing since I'm a kid, but I probably am no fanboy, and I yet strongly disliked the movie, more than any SW movies before. And to me, the biggest issues were problems that weren't kicking in in the SW realm, but pace, story, twists, narrative choices, things really down to movie-making and that I could discuss about for other movies.
If it were issues like "Oh but really ? Han's dices ?!!" like some people brought up, I wouldn't be bothered by them, but I just found the movie extremely poorly constructed and with too little substance for its ambitions, making it look very pretentious. If it wasn't 2h31 but, say, 40 min shorter, maybe I would have been more accomodating with it, but not with this.
And none of this has to do with being a fanboy.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1345 Post by movielocke » Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:26 pm

I still maintain that most of the problems with last Jedi originate in the sloppy and utterly thoughtless structure and writing of force awakens . Awakens is brilliant in its own way, but there was no three film goal in mind whatsoever for most of the Mileau and characters it invented.

For the most part I think Jedi is a long film because Johnson used the running time to clean up Abrams mess and reorientate the trilogy towards a climactic final film.

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Kirkinson
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1346 Post by Kirkinson » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:03 pm

Tenia, I don't think anyone here is accusing everyone with a strong negative opinion of The Last Jedi (and certainly not everyone with thoughtful, measured criticisms) of being an angry fanboy. The problem is that the people who are angry fanboys have largely drowned out people who just didn't like it in a normal, healthy way. Consider this Twitter user and all the memes and accounts he is retweeting — these people are still, to this day, popping up in the replies to every tweet Rian Johnson makes, even if it has nothing to do with Star Wars. In the weeks following The Last Jedi's release, they were also constantly showing up in the replies to posts by critics who gave the movie a favorable review. They will still show up in replies to new articles about the movie. This hoard has made it exhausting to engage in reasonable arguments of substance about The Last Jedi on social media, or even occasionally in "real life" — I know a couple people who reacted to the movie like this, and they are the main reason I never wrote anything about my reaction here. Not because I feared the same kind of shrieking mess from this board, but because dealing with it elsewhere so exasperated me that I didn't have any energy left for a more reasonable discussion.

EDIT: I should maybe admit that my exasperation is also largely my own fault for choosing to spend hours arguing with unreasonable people about a Star Wars movie....
Last edited by Kirkinson on Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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tenia
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1347 Post by tenia » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:18 pm

I understand the feeling against obnoxious fanboys, but it feels that the response against them sometimes is quite simplistic too and makes it look as if most (if not all) the negative response was coming from or expressed as if coming from obsessive fanboys.
But I'm not saying it for here only, it's a general feeling I've read on many other discussion boards I'm reading. "Fanboy" is a word often coming very quickly in the discussion, most of the time thrown at attackers of the movie, as if they were obsessively nitpicking about details from TLJ and thus unable to just sit back, relax and enjoy the movie.
Considering, as I wrote, how some of the flaws I found in the movie seemed to me down to basic filmmaking and screenwriting, it can feel frustrating to be sent back to the "angry fanboy" cliché, even when you try and articulate reasons for your opinion and how they are actually quite outside elements from the franchise.
Kirkinson wrote:Consider this Twitter user and all the memes and accounts he is retweeting — these people are still, to this day, popping up in the replies to every tweet Rian Johnson makes, even if it has nothing to do with Star Wars.
I genuinely and honestly feel sad for people with so much free time on their hands wasting it on doing this and how unsanely obsessed they look.
movielocke wrote:I still maintain that most of the problems with last Jedi originate in the sloppy and utterly thoughtless structure and writing of force awakens . Awakens is brilliant in its own way, but there was no three film goal in mind whatsoever for most of the Mileau and characters it invented.
For the most part I think Jedi is a long film because Johnson used the running time to clean up Abrams mess and reorientate the trilogy towards a climactic final film.
I'm not sure. As I wrote at the time, the whole escapade of Poe and Rose on the casino planet felt like 90 minutes wasted for nothing, and I can't think it couldn't have done in a much shorter way.

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McCrutchy
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1348 Post by McCrutchy » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:24 pm

movielocke wrote:I still maintain that most of the problems with last Jedi originate in the sloppy and utterly thoughtless structure and writing of force awakens . Awakens is brilliant in its own way, but there was no three film goal in mind whatsoever for most of the Mileau and characters it invented.

For the most part I think Jedi is a long film because Johnson used the running time to clean up Abrams mess and reorientate the trilogy towards a climactic final film.
That could be entirely true. For me, I rate The Force Awakens slightly better than The Last Jedi, but only because the 2015 film has Harrison Ford as Han Solo, and I always found Ford's character and performance more appealing than Luke Skywalker (which in turn, is why I will not see the Solo film, with--as I understand it--no Harrison Ford), and also because it was over thirty years since Ford, Hamill and Fisher, as Han, Luke and Leia, had shared a film together, so I forgave some sense of "ring rust" when it came to other aspects of the film. However, none of the new characters worked for me, and I think the big issue is that Abrams wanted to have his cake (make a movie with the original cast) and eat it, too (introduce several new characters at the same time), which resulted in too much character development falling by the wayside. And of course, this didn't happen with only the new characters, but also with Luke, who became a gimmick.

So, I could easily see Johnson with his work cut out for him right at the start, and perhaps that's why so little actually happens in The Last Jedi, because Johnson was just as busy, if not busier, trying to develop the new characters, as he was busy trying to advance the plot of the trilogy. Of course, I would say one of the major failures in the second film was to compound the situation by throwing Rose, Holdo and "DJ" into the mix, along with having to do the Luke Skywalker movie Abrams teased in the previous entry. And as much as I probably won't see it, I kind of feel like Abrams could turn Episode IX into this massive shitshow, which passive-aggressively ignores The Last Jedi as much as possible, and instead tries to be a spiritual sequel to The Force Awakens. For example, I could see Abrams using Luke as a major part of the film (especially with Carrie Fisher gone), and taking him in a much different direction, and I could also see characters introduced in The Last Jedi sidelined for much of the next film, too.

Of course, I'm assuming Kathleen Kennedy might have other ideas, and she may well try to force (heh) Abrams to simply tie everything in a bow and call it a day. On the other hand, she can't have had too many issues with either The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi, and let's not forget the shameful exploitation of the original film in Rogue One and whatever has happened/will happen with Solo, so right now, it just seems like a big, damn mess. I know one thing for sure, I don't envy J.J. Abrams, especially if Solo is a disappointment, and causes more negative fan reaction.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1349 Post by connor » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:40 pm

I don't understand the complaints about the casino planet. The whole point was to zoom out of this (fairly claustrophobic) back-and-forth between good guys and bad guys shooting each other in space and show what the galaxy-wide effect of this long civil war was -- the rise of a new, decadent elite living high on the hog and playing both sides against each other. It was all very WWII era, cinematically speaking, in a pretty clever way, especially the Del Toro character. And I thought it paid off at the very end quite beautifully with the little kids hearing of Luke's stand and looking to the skies. It did what Star Wars desperately needs at this point: it expanded the scope of the narrative (the opposite of Rogue One). This is also, of course, a pretty savvy business move if Disney wants to squeeze another few decades out of this IP.

Even besides all that stuff, I loved the look of it (shooting in Croatia was an excellent touch), and I enjoyed the kinda populist "smash up the richies' playground" aspect of it. A welcome new direction in Star Wars that's surprising but also feels true to the material (and the cinematic tradition its always drawn upon).

If you want to talk about useless second act diversions, let's talk about the awful Maz Kanata stuff from the Force Awakens. I was happy to see Rian Johnson close that chapter so swiftly.

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knives
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1350 Post by knives » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:41 pm

movielocke wrote:I still maintain that most of the problems with last Jedi originate in the sloppy and utterly thoughtless structure and writing of force awakens . Awakens is brilliant in its own way, but there was no three film goal in mind whatsoever for most of the Mileau and characters it invented.
Isn't that true of the original film as well though?

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