Apocalypse Now (Francis Ford Coppola, 1979)

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aox
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Re: Apocalypse Now (Francis Ford Coppola, 1979)

#101 Post by aox » Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:06 pm

Just to offer an opinion, but I enjoyed everything added to Redux except the "Willard stealing the surfboard" scenes. It completely destroys Kilgore's character IMO by making him completely ineffectual. If I could get rid of that, Redux would almost be as perfect as the Theatrical Cut, IMO.

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flyonthewall2983
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Re: Apocalypse Now (Francis Ford Coppola, 1979)

#102 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:52 pm

I love that scene actually because you see Willard and the guys on the boat bond a little by stealing the board. I don't think it makes Kilgore ineffectual but I get that interpretation. In my eyes it makes him a little crazy for broadcasting it later, which doesn't contradict Duvall's performance much either.

I think the extra scene with the Playboy bunnies is a bit too extraneous and doesn't add much to the story. I do like the French plantation scene too, as a means of understanding the historical context of the French involvement leading up to the war.

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Roscoe
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Re: Apocalypse Now (Francis Ford Coppola, 1979)

#103 Post by Roscoe » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:55 am

aox wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:06 pm
Just to offer an opinion, but I enjoyed everything added to Redux except the "Willard stealing the surfboard" scenes. It completely destroys Kilgore's character IMO by making him completely ineffectual. If I could get rid of that, Redux would almost be as perfect as the Theatrical Cut, IMO.
For me the issue with the "Stolen Surfboard" material is that it diminishes Kilgore, making him into much more of a buffoon than a dangerous lunatic ("if that's how Kilgore fought the war, I began to wonder what they had against Kurtz"), and the picture we get of Willard actually laughing with the crew doesn't really jibe with the guy we see, not long afterward, getting furious with a sergeant over not getting immediate service for his mission. By stealing the surfboard, and later on by dealing diesel fuel for time with the Bunnies, Willard's in something of a glass house when it comes to having issues with the way anybody else conducts the war.

I much prefer the leaner and meaner and more disturbed Willard in the original Theatrical Cut -- he's been out too long and seen too much while out there, and his growing identification with Kurtz isn't diluted with folderol about surfboards and Playboy bunnies and opium sex with Frenchwomen.

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aox
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Re: Apocalypse Now (Francis Ford Coppola, 1979)

#104 Post by aox » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:13 pm

Roscoe wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:55 am
aox wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:06 pm
Just to offer an opinion, but I enjoyed everything added to Redux except the "Willard stealing the surfboard" scenes. It completely destroys Kilgore's character IMO by making him completely ineffectual. If I could get rid of that, Redux would almost be as perfect as the Theatrical Cut, IMO.
For me the issue with the "Stolen Surfboard" material is that it diminishes Kilgore, making him into much more of a buffoon than a dangerous lunatic ("if that's how Kilgore fought the war, I began to wonder what they had against Kurtz"), and the picture we get of Willard actually laughing with the crew doesn't really jibe with the guy we see, not long afterward, getting furious with a sergeant over not getting immediate service for his mission. By stealing the surfboard, and later on by dealing diesel fuel for time with the Bunnies, Willard's in something of a glass house when it comes to having issues with the way anybody else conducts the war.

I much prefer the leaner and meaner and more disturbed Willard in the original Theatrical Cut -- he's been out too long and seen too much while out there, and his growing identification with Kurtz isn't diluted with folderol about surfboards and Playboy bunnies and opium sex with Frenchwomen.
You articulated it perfectly about Kilgore. As for showing the camaraderie of the crew, that's what the whole movie is about. We are spending 2 1/2-3 hours with them. Getting to know them and their agency is a slow burn, and that's perfectly fine. So, even disregarding the narrative problem that you bring up (out of character Willard before and after the surfboard scene), this "cheap" scene (my opinion) isn't worth it if the main thing it accomplishes diminishes Kilgore's character who we already spend a very limited time with to begin with. In other words: it simply isn't worth having in the film and does more damage than service to the plot.

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flyonthewall2983
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Re: Apocalypse Now (Francis Ford Coppola, 1979)

#105 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:52 pm

I find the Kilgore character, even in the theatrical cut, as a character that's a little hard to pin down. He comes over to an enemy soldier who is dying and begging for water and lets him drink out of his canteen (even threatening violence to someone who dismisses him as "dirty VC"), but immediately takes it and his attention away once he is told about Lance.

greggster59
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Re: Apocalypse Now (Francis Ford Coppola, 1979)

#106 Post by greggster59 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:58 pm

flyonthewall2983 wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:52 pm
I find the Kilgore character, even in the theatrical cut, as a character that's a little hard to pin down. He comes over to an enemy soldier who is dying and begging for water and lets him drink out of his canteen (even threatening violence to someone who dismisses him as "dirty VC"), but immediately takes it and his attention away once he is told about Lance.
Maybe he just forgot to take his Ritalin.

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DeprongMori
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Re: Apocalypse Now (Francis Ford Coppola, 1979)

#107 Post by DeprongMori » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:37 pm

For me, the “stealing the surfboard” scene worked quite well. Kilgore is dangerous, effective *and* totally nuts. His derangement manifesting in his broadcasting his search for the surfboard reinforces his madness. The theft itself was consonant with what we had learned about the crew and even Willard, but enriched it.

I am sympathetic however to arguments that it potentially distracts from Willard’s personal journey of identification with Kurtz.

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flyonthewall2983
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Re: Apocalypse Now (Francis Ford Coppola, 1979)

#108 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:52 pm

The subsequent cuts also do a little more justice to the other guys on the boat, with the exception of when they meet the Playboy girls which goes a bit overboard on what the surfboard stuff just hints at. Milius said in the interview with Coppola on the Blu-rays that despite writing it he was glad to see that cut when it first came out. In terms of the mythological allegories, he felt it really didn't serve the story much purpose that the "sirens" were suddenly made available to them.

I'm sure I said this before but one thing I really disliked about the theatrical cut (I watched Redux first) was how early the "Satisfaction" scene comes in. It gives a more immediate impression that lends credence to what Willard says about them being "rock and rollers with one foot in their graves" and not real soldiers. While the narration is cut and dry and gives you a peek inside his head, I do think there is still room left for interpretation as to what his state of mind really is.

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flyonthewall2983
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Re: Apocalypse Now (Francis Ford Coppola, 1979)

#109 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:05 am

I finished the new cut. It is, for me, the perfect version of the film. It cuts out the truly unnecessary without making it feel less like the languid journey into madness it borders on in it's best moments.

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Reverend Drewcifer
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Re: Apocalypse Now (Francis Ford Coppola, 1979)

#110 Post by Reverend Drewcifer » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:03 pm

Just purchased and shelved the AN laserdisc with the Zoetrope Studios banner. I now have every release. To paraphrase Paul F. Tomkins re: smashed pennies at carnivals: "I love you Zoetrope Studios-branded laserdisc copy of a movie I own too many copies of. I'll see you when I move."

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hearthesilence
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Re: Apocalypse Now (Francis Ford Coppola, 1979)

#111 Post by hearthesilence » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:49 pm

Caught the "final cut" before it left theaters. As mentioned by many viewers, there is egregious degradation from the duping necessary to create the multiple dissolves in the opening sequence. You're going to see a lot more grain, and it's not going to have a fine texture to it either. Once you get past that, the rest will look great.

To be honest, I didn't think this new cut was a welcome bit of fine-tuning like, say, Blade Runner's "final cut." I remember the theatrical cut much better than the Redux revision, and arguably none of the noticeable additions/changes to the theatrical cut really seemed like improvements. The surf board theft felt like a misguided addition, and though the plantation footage was welcome for acknowledging the ignorance, arrogance and imperialist attitudes that laid the groundwork for the war, it probably needed a re-write and not just a re-edit after the fact. And I miss the Redux addition of Brando reading the misleading news reports from home even though his delivery in that scene was pretty shitty (and his improvisation seemed especially bad this time around too).

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