Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Rian Johnson, 2017)

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knives
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#326 Post by knives » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:14 pm

Given the series has really only had three good directors and one of those specialized in very un-Star Wars films that's not too surprising.

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#327 Post by Mr Sausage » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:18 pm

I don’t like any of the breezy, twirling duels of the prequels, Darth Maul fight aside. It’s like when a ballet or gymnastics/circus show does a big fight scene, where it’s all graceful misses and leaping into effortless breakfalls and no one’s seriously trying to persuade you it’s a violent physical fight where people are getting hurt.

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domino harvey
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#328 Post by domino harvey » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:42 pm

The amount of pure hatred "fans" of this series have for the first two installments of the new trilogy makes me gladder than ever I was never one of them. These two films are better than everything else to ever appear under the banner combined, and looking at the objections and feverish, borderline incel-level rants of the detractors, I'm confident I'm on the right side!

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#329 Post by RIP Film » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:47 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:42 pm
The amount of pure hatred "fans" of this series have for the first two installments of the new trilogy makes me gladder than ever I was never one of them. These two films are better than everything else to ever appear under the banner combined, and looking at the objections and feverish, borderline incel-level rants of the detractors, I'm confident I'm on the right side!
Sorry, what do these new films do so well? I’m not a star wars “fan” but I do think the original story was brilliant in the vein of an old fashion swashbuckler with the wisdom of Joseph Campbell running throughout. The movie that kicked off the new trilogy came off like embarrassing fan fiction, reliving the old set pieces while trying to up the stakes at every opportunity and falling flat. Then the sequel has Luke trying to murder his nephew who he thinks might be a bad apple, despite wanting to save the most irredeemable person in the galaxy a few decades ago. How is anyone supposed to make sense of this? What is the motivation of Kylo Ren? Thank goodness Adam Driver is such a good actor. Then there is Daisy Ridley’s character who is the only light in this dim story arc, but who is up to now till now basically a cipher for rekindling nostalghic characters and events, and after two movies is still a mystery. Oh yeah, and the newest one ends with a kid moving a broom. A broom.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#330 Post by McCrutchy » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:01 pm

RIP Film wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:47 pm
Oh yeah, and the newest one ends with a kid moving a broom. A broom.
HE is the Grand High WITCH!

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R0lf
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#331 Post by R0lf » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:19 pm

Damn, now we definitely need a "like" button on this forum.

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MoonlitKnight
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#332 Post by MoonlitKnight » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:45 pm

RIP Film wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:47 pm
What is the motivation of Kylo Ren?
To turn to the Dark Side purely to spite his family, of course. What else would any sensible youth do -- especially in light of all the thorough exposition we've gotten regarding unseen events that apparently happened between Episodes VI and VII? :|

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#333 Post by black&huge » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:58 pm

MoonlitKnight wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:45 pm
RIP Film wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:47 pm
What is the motivation of Kylo Ren?
To turn to the Dark Side purely to spite his family, of course. What else would any sensible youth do -- especially in light of all the thorough exposition we've gotten regarding unseen events that apparently happened between Episodes VI and VII? :|
Also it's not like Vader had deep motives. Barring the PT he was someone who got persuaded to join the dark side because of some guy who was more powerful than him.

Then we got the PT and people questioned whether an entire trilogy mapping out an iconic villain's journey to said dark side was believable because things like Jar Jar, Trade disputes and clone troopers were apparently more important to scrutinize.

So why are people wanting hard answers to Ren's motivations? Oh that's right, bombs falling in space, hyperspace kamikazes, purple hair and an asian female not being the weeb wetdream "hot asian" are the actual problems here*

* just to clarify I don't think it's hard to figure out all the manchildren trolling on the character of Rose and the actress playing her are doing it for the absolute superficial reasons. Whether it be expectations of only "hot asian women" should be portrayed or just flat out mom's basement racism because they can't stand looking at Asian faces for whatever reason.

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Big Ben
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#334 Post by Big Ben » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:23 pm

I thought it was made pretty clear that Kylo was being manipulated by outside forces (Snoke) and that in Luke's panic about that (Trying to kill him because he feared the rise of the Dark Side again.) he brought out the Dark side in a more complete manner because Kylo needed to defend himself which is why he fled to The First Order/Snoke. That was was the driving force behind Luke cutting himself off from the force and becoming a hermit. Luke's moment of weakness is responsible for a lot of what is going on in the new trilogy. Kylo was driven by fear ( It's established that this is one of those things that drives people to the dark side in the original trilogy!) and became corrupted by Snoke.

While certainly not Shakespearean (What in Star Wars is?) surely no one will debate this is less nuanced than Jar Jar Binks?

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R0lf
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#335 Post by R0lf » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:50 pm

(The movies go out of their way to then double up and consolidate those Kylo themes with Fin who was also brainwashed as a kid to serve The First Order but when his opportunity arises goes on to make better decisions.)

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#336 Post by RIP Film » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:34 am

Big Ben wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:23 pm
I thought it was made pretty clear that Kylo was being manipulated by outside forces (Snoke) and that in Luke's panic about that (Trying to kill him because he feared the rise of the Dark Side again.) he brought out the Dark side in a more complete manner because Kylo needed to defend himself which is why he fled to The First Order/Snoke. That was was the driving force behind Luke cutting himself off from the force and becoming a hermit. Luke's moment of weakness is responsible for a lot of what is going on in the new trilogy. Kylo was driven by fear ( It's established that this is one of those things that drives people to the dark side in the original trilogy!) and became corrupted by.
That’s a good synopsis, but I tend to feel like people are making excuses for the screenwriters when it’s their job to fill in the gaps. Sure it makes sense in outline form, but I found myself continually questioning why Kylo has a hard on for being evil, and why Luke wanted to kill him. So much is missing in the timeline of events that it’s hard to get a grip on these characters. Vader didn’t really need such motivations, he was an archetypal vision of evil, but even then he never wished the death of his family— he tried to save his family and couldn’t, which is what led him to take a cynical authoritarian view that naturally aligns with ‘the dark side’. Oh, but Kylo was manipulated by Snoke, a character that has like 3 lines in the whole new trilogy? This is the problem, again and again the screenwriters rely on viewer familiarity to fill in the holes without taking the time to flesh out these characters. At the end of Empire Strikes Back, there was a great amount of tension, Luke discovered who is father is, Han is frozen, etc. At the end of Last Jedi my only question is: well, is Kylo going to stop being a dick?

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DarkImbecile
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#337 Post by DarkImbecile » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:38 am

RIP Film wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:34 am
Vader didn’t really need such motivations, he was an archetypal vision of evil, but even then he never wished the death of his family— he tried to save his family and couldn’t, which is what led him to take a cynical authoritarian view that naturally aligns with ‘the dark side’.
There is absolutely nothing in the original movies that would give a viewer this shading on that character; the double standards people apply to these films never ceases to amaze me.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#338 Post by RIP Film » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:02 am

DarkImbecile wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:38 am
There is absolutely nothing in the original movies that would give a viewer this shading on that character; the double standards people apply to these films never ceases to amaze me.
He didn’t need it, as I said he was an archetypal image of evil. But Anakin did need such shading in the prequels. These are basically two different characters, their role in each trilogy is dramatically different.

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Big Ben
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#339 Post by Big Ben » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:06 am

It's to my understanding that Snoke's identity may be elaborated on in future media. I'll concede that that leaves the real formation of The First Order a mystery but I'm unsure if it needs any more explanation than the Empire did in the original six films? It's just an organization of Space Fascists and knowing just a tiny bit more about that really isn't going to change my opinion of them. It's also possible these stories have been elaborated on in the books they've been releasing and I'm simply missing more info. But I really, really don't think Snoke and the First Order are meant to be anything other than Space Fascists. Speaking on Kylo I really don't doubt he'll be redeemed. But whether or not we'll get a Kurosawa style ending where he sacrifices himself or a Milquetoast Hollywood Ending of "Lol you killed a bunch of people but in the end you saved us all but you're redeemed" remains to be seen.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#340 Post by What A Disgrace » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:22 pm

I would hope Kylo Ren's redemption will be more nuanced than either of those, myself. I suspect it will at least attempt it - I cannot conceive of either option being implemented according to the films we've seen so far. But that might just be my wishful thinking.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#341 Post by aox » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:56 pm

Big Ben wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:06 am
It's to my understanding that Snoke's identity may be elaborated on in future media. I'll concede that that leaves the real formation of The First Order a mystery but I'm unsure if it needs any more explanation than the Empire did in the original six films? It's just an organization of Space Fascists and knowing just a tiny bit more about that really isn't going to change my opinion of them.
Maybe they are trying to make space great again.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#342 Post by domino harvey » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:45 pm

Some of you inadvertently bring up a good point: we've only seen 2/3 of the new trilogy, why are so many people convinced these "problems" or "issues" as they see them won't be addressed/resolved by the final part? How many movies have any of us seen that we're lacking or iffy for an hour and then ended up being redeemed in the last act? It's not an unreasonable expectation

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#343 Post by Big Ben » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:57 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:45 pm
Some of you inadvertently bring up a good point: we've only seen 2/3 of the new trilogy, why are so many people convinced these "problems" or "issues" as they see them won't be addressed/resolved by the final part? How many movies have any of us seen that we're lacking or iffy for an hour and then ended up being redeemed in the last act? It's not an unreasonable expectation
You raise a succinct point but there's always a variety of answers depending on how people feel about what's already there.

In the case of the most extreme examples it's not really about how something is resolved it's about how certain individuals feel about what's already there. It doesn't matter how something is resolved now because the simple existence of certain plot points has made the new series irredeemable in the eyes of said people. No one on this forum that I've seen has acted with this level of ferocity though. Nothing the next film does will redeem what's happened.

As for myself and others in here of a far more reasonable sentiment I think it's just interesting to see to spitball about open threads that be resolved in satisfactory ways. Some people take Star Wars far more seriously than I do however and I imagine they'll be far harsher than I will. I imagine we'll get a fairly standard ending because anything too extravagant simply isn't necessary.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#344 Post by RIP Film » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:10 am

I’m adamantly against films not being self-contained, I would think this forum more than others would get that. You shouldn’t need a sequel or outside reading material to understand a film, especially popcorn entertainment like Star Wars. It seems more and more we accept this kind of serialization. I’m sure Disney has considered making this a quadrilogy to make all the questions last longer.

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domino harvey
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#345 Post by domino harvey » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:18 am

I understand the films perfectly well. I think the arguments people made against them here and elsewhere are almost wholly asinine and childish. Doesn't change my point one iota when people talk out against perceived finite motivations for characters who haven't finished their arcs

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#346 Post by RIP Film » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:35 am

It’s hard to care about arcs when the characters themselves are barely of substance. Kylo is like Anakin if he underwent a lobotomy, and Rey is Luke Skywalker with a question mark.

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domino harvey
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#347 Post by domino harvey » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:41 am

How so?

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#348 Post by RIP Film » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:10 am

I’m just saying they borrow heavily from previous characters, and the writers use this as a crutch/excuse not to develop them. Kylo is the most interesting but his motives are deranged and illogical even for the dark side. And Rey is positioned to be the hero savior from a desert planet, but after two films is still a mystey. If the greater conflict is between these two, it calls to question what is at stake, because I’m not sure.

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domino harvey
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#349 Post by domino harvey » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:18 am

In what ways did we know more about Luke after the first two films of the original trilogy than we do Rey?

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#350 Post by Mr Sausage » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:48 am

RIP Film wrote:I’m adamantly against films not being self-contained, I would think this forum more than others would get that. You shouldn’t need a sequel or outside reading material to understand a film, especially popcorn entertainment like Star Wars. It seems more and more we accept this kind of serialization. I’m sure Disney has considered making this a quadrilogy to make all the questions last longer.
So you've invented an arbitrary rule and had the bad sense to treat it as an absolute. The problem here is any resulting problems are the fault of the rule, not the films.

Firstly, nothing is ever self contained. Otherwise every work of art is burdened with reexplaining the world to you each time you watch it it, and that's both impossible, exhausting, and luckily unnecessary. Some films, like books, require more knowledge, experience, or wisdom from their audience than others. Some literary works for example require a decent knowledge of the bible to be comprehensible, some need you to know greek or roman myth, and others need you to have a grasp of philosophy and history before they can begin to make sense. This is a given. On some level, even a general cultural one, you've accepted that works of art do not expect to be educating blank slates. Each artwork has an ideal audience in mind, and pitches at a certain level of knowledge, intelligence, wisdom, and willingness to work.

Secondly, genre films especially are never self contained. They explicitly rely on your understanding of previous genre films to work. You're expected to be familiar with the conventions, archetypes, and styles not just for your enjoyment, but precisely so that films don't have to sink themselves by explaining everything anew. By and large, books can afford to be mini encyclopedias because at no time is the audience expected to consume them in a sitting. If they feel like explaining absolutely everything, they can. Films can't. As genre films like sci-fi and fantasy use invented worlds, they're forced to explain a lot of things other films wouldn't need to, requiring them to rely even more on familiar tropes to communicate quickly and without wasted time. For every new creature, concept, or piece of technology, that's one more bit of character or plot the film hasn't time to explain and needs to evoke through the audience's understanding of genre tropes.

The other thing is: there's a difference between making something comprehensible and making something explicit. Kylo Ren's motivations and past aren't made explicit, by and large, but they are suggested enough to be comprehensible (a combination of fear and resentment towards parental figures and their expectations coupled with far too much power and responsibility at a young age). We know enough about how these fears and resentments manifest themselves in the real world not to need their development in this particular case made explicit in the way you're demanding. Between our knowledge of the world, Driver's performance, and the choice details we're given, we can figure out what happened with Kylo Ren. This is actually nice: films that explain even those things we can figure out ourselves are tedious and have no trust in their audience. Films that require a bit of knowledge and imagination in their audiences are good things.

People are demanding unreasonable things of these Star Wars sequels, deliberately I think. There's some need for them to fail, for reasons I don't think I understand. But the need is strong enough that if good reasons aren't there, bad ones will do.

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