Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Rian Johnson, 2017)

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tenia
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#226 Post by tenia » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:35 pm

who is bobby dylan wrote:Holdo does tell Poe her plan. When she tells him, he stages a mutiny and reveals the plan over the radio leading to its discovery by the First Order! Telling him the plan sooner wouldn't change the general thrust of this.
I'll double check, but IIRC, there is a technicity that is not revealed originally by Holdo to Poe (and us), which leads him to believe the plan is wrong and will lead them to death. He's led to believe that not once, but twice, and it's only when Leia awakens from her coma that this technicity is revealed and that Poe understands the plan is a good one. He doesn't have the information early on, and neither do us, which is why it's plausible narratively to understand how we're going to spend all this significant movie-time following and rooting for Poe, Finn and Rose's mutiny : because Holdo seems bad all along (but of course, he actually isn't : what a twist !).
I'm actually unsure how I would have felt otherwise.
who is bobby dylan wrote:Again, not every movie plays well for everyone. I thought all of this played out extremely well. You didn't. That's fine.
Oh that's fine for me too, don't worry. I'm actually happy being corrected if I'm wrong, though I wish the movie was out in here already so I could rely on it instead of just my memory (see above). But I'm just expressing my point of view on the movie in an un-emotional way (or at least that I try to make this way).
We can all disagree but if it's by just expressing what some liked and other disliked, that's fine.
connor wrote:And that shot of Luke walking out of the flaming metal door to face down the walkers...
There are a handful of tremendously beautiful shots, evoking some concept arts more than actual screenshots, and this is definitely one of these. If I had to hand down anything to TLJ, that would be this (though I wished the movie would have more shots like that).

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#227 Post by who is bobby dylan » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:41 pm

Um, no, it's quite a valid criticism if you actually understand what a Mary Sue is and why it's generally considered bad/lazy writing (and that a male version is usually referred to as a 'Gary Stu')... and this video does a good job at breaking down why Rey is and why Luke and Anakin mostly aren't (though you could argue Anakin was a Mary Sue/Gary Stu in TPM, given he's set up as this Messiah-like character... but that changes in the next installment).
No. It is sexist garbage. I understand what a Mary Sue is. I know that the male version is a Gary Stu. I watched the video. Doubling down on this and linking a video to this sexist garbage argument, started by a screen writer who has mysteriously left twitter after multiple sexual misconduct allegations is again, not a good look for you.

Addressing the merits of the argument that you are advancing:

Overpowered. Before the new trilogy we have seen only two people go through the process of learning to use their force powers, Luke and Anakin. We have no idea whether or not the force powers they display at the start are typical of the development of a force user. Likewise, Rey is not even the most powerful force user in the new trilogy. Luke, Snoke, and Ren are clearly more powerful than her.

Unexplained Power Level. See above. Also the first movie in the new trilogy is literally called The Force Awakens. Also, unlike other force users (Kylo, Leia, Luke, Snoke) we don’t see Rey display any new powers, only force powers we’ve already seen. Which would indicate that she is actually underpowered. Where are her character specific force powers?

Perfectly good. Rey is not perfectly good. She knows roughly who her parents were and that they were nobodies. This is setup in both films. Maz Kenata confronts her with the fact that she knows her parents aren’t coming back in The Force Awakens and Kylo Ren confronts her with the truth that she has willing suppressed that she knows her parents were nobodies. This amount of delusion in a person, is kind of a big imperfection. Also, her entire plan in the movie (turn Kylo) fails and nearly results in her death. Also she purposefully hides her telecommunication with Kylo from Luke, which is dishonest and not something a perfectly good person would do.

No personality. See the personality disorder above.

Instantly liked. People didn’t instantly like Luke?

Feels like wish fulfillment. Clearly it isn't the wish of the many sexist who trot out this garbage argument because they can't stand the idea that a fictional girl might be a more powerful force user than a fictional boy was, even though every other force user in the original trilogy displayed more impressive force powers than Luke in the OT (but, they were all men, so this doesn't matter).

Not embarrassed / fails. She fails in her first confrontation with Kylo Ren in the forest. She fails in her confrontation with Snoke (who is much more powerful than her) she fails in her plot to turn Kylo.

Rey has twice shown success in a confrontation against another force user. The first time in her final battle against Kylo in The Force Awakens. Note, that Kylo was wounded by Chewbacca. That he was wounded again, while toying with Finn and that he is completely unbalanced force wise at this point. Even so, he is able to toy with her in the first half of the battle, she only wins, when she realizes she should use the force to help her fight and is then able to beat an unbalanced opponent. Again, in the scene in Snoke's chamber, Snoke's guards clearly regard Kylo as the more serious threat as they gang up on him, while leaving a single fighter to face off against Rey, she is then able to force pull (or whatever it is) Kylo to a draw, again because she is more balanced than he is. Old man Luke (never an impressive swordsman in any of the films) is beating her with just an antenna until she draws a lazer sword on him, the force power she displays at the end is... moving a bunch of rocks, etc.
I'll double check, but IIRC, there is a technicity that is not revealed originally by Holdo to Poe (and us), which leads him to believe the plan is wrong and will lead them to death. He's led to believe that not once, but twice, and it's only when Leia awakens from her coma that this technicity is revealed and that Poe understands the plan is a good one. He doesn't have the information early on, and neither do us, which is why it's plausible narratively to understand how we're going to spend all this significant movie-time following and rooting for Poe, Finn and Rose's mutiny : because Holdo seems bad all along (but of course, he actually isn't : what a twist !).
I'm actually unsure how I would have felt otherwise.
Holdo did not seem bad to me. She seemed like a clearly competent woman, who was being asked by an unqualified and recently demoted man to explain her every action to him, and that only if he found them satisfactory could they be good because he is a man (however inexperienced and blundering) and she is a woman (so despite her experience, in another battle, which Poe is familiar with!) he doesn't trust her, for grounds that are partly sexist. The expectation that she comport with his command and prove herself to him, is sexist garbage and she rightfully refuses. I did not find, clearly competent woman has a good plan to be a "twist". Of course she did.
Last edited by who is bobby dylan on Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:49 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#228 Post by cdnchris » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:04 pm

tenia wrote: I didn't find this at all to be a surprise.
Actually, it felt like another easy choice for the movie.
SpoilerShow
A surprise would have been for Rey to turn to the Dark Side, but when plotting the different possibilities of the encounter in my head, the easiest one was for Kylo to kill Snoke, become the new leader, and fighting Rey. And duh, that's what happened.
And honestly, I like a lot Driver's Ren, which is the character I find the most interesting in this new trilogy, and he's certainly the most interesting thing in TLJ. He has a certain blankness in his expressions (or, mostly, lack of) that seems perfectly suiting, a way to create a character which looks internally conflicted. But this evolution felt very easy to me.
That's fair and maybe it should have been obvious to me,
SpoilerShow
but as I said I was expecting it would follow the original trilogy where the big final showdown with the supreme leader would be in the third film (possibly involving a planet with cute-yet-ugly furry creatures), along with Rey still dealing with Ren's "conflict" and turning him and yada yada. But the film turned that around, Ren kills Snoke, but it's not because he's turned as Rey first suspects, but because he just thinks he has a better (though still evil) vision. Yeah, Rey turning would be more of a surprise (even Ren turning good would have been) but the direction the Ren character is going is interesting to me and I liked that it still broke my expectations at that point.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#229 Post by movielocke » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:10 pm

Lucas Skywalker is utterly a Mary Sue, it is right there in the name George Lucas gave the character.

And remember the whole idea that Luke and Leia were siblings was an after the fact way to avoid a dumb love triangle when everyone except George Lucas knew Leia and Han had better chemistry. This is why Leia kisses Luke in the first film, as Lucas intended his Mary Sue to beat the bad guys, blow up the Death Star, be revealed as a secret princeling with special royal blood, become a demi god and get the girl.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#230 Post by Feiereisel » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:43 pm

connor wrote:The accusations of a bland, placeholder protagonist who's simply "really good at everything" for no other reason than to move the narrative along are more accurately leveled at Rogue One's Jyn Erso, a complete non-entity in a wildly overrated film.
I disagree. Once again noting my previously stated objection to branding any character a "Mary Sue," I'd argue that Jyn is presented not as "bland" but as ambivalent to the Rebel Alliance's aims until the end of the film, after she has seen the Empire murder what remains for her family and use their hellmaking superweapon to obliterate an entire city. The film hints at enough personal and moral motivation to explain the choices she and her team make toward the end of the film. Whether or not it works for a particular viewer is another question entirely.

A more extrinsic reason reason Jyn is not a particularly active protagonist during the early going is that she is--rightfully--suspicious of Cassian and the Rebel brass, who exploit her prior relationship with Saw to obtain information they are intent on acquiring. Cassian, introduced as a morally ambiguous clandestine operative, uses her like a spy would an intelligence asset.

Also, the assertion that Jyn is "really good at everything" seems like a bit of a stretch because, due to her own ambivalence and the frame placed around her by the manipulative Rebels she interacts with, she isn't ever really required to miraculously, excuse the term, "bullseye any womprats."

I worry that I'm enabling the insidiousness of the term "Mary Sue" by digging into this at all. That said, I also think it's possible and necessary to frame arguments for or against any of these films without using loaded, regressive language.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#231 Post by MoonlitKnight » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:37 pm

Feiereisel wrote:The sexist implications of the gendered term "Mary Sue" are the issue, and simply creating a rhyming, male-specific term doesn't undo its problematic nature.
who is bobby dylan wrote:No. It is sexist garbage. I understand what a Mary Sue is. I know that the male version is a Gary Stu. I watched the video. Doubling down on this and linking a video to this sexist garbage argument, started by a screen writer who has mysteriously left twitter after multiple sexual misconduct allegations is again, not a good look for you.
JFC, enough with the identity politics bullshit; it's become simply a ploy for people to hide behind when they can't offer up anything of substance in response to criticisms. :roll: The term was coined because the 'patient zero' for it just happened to be female... and no doubt the vast majority of us standing by this criticism would still feel the same way if Rey was indeed male.
Instantly liked. People didn’t instantly like Luke?
Han, Chewie, and Leia all didn't exactly throw themselves all over him initially ("Aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper?")... but they somehow did for Rey (Leia quite literally).
Not embarrassed / fails. She fails in her first confrontation with Kylo Ren in the forest. She fails in her confrontation with Snoke (who is much more powerful than her) she fails in her plot to turn Kylo.
Yeah, and those instances lasted all of, what, 1 minute of screen time, if that? They were more like very temporary setbacks. She successfully executes a Jedi mind trick on her second or third try (even without having to do the accompanying hand wave). She wins her very first lightsaber duel (enough with the 'Kylo was wounded' excuse [a contrivance in itself]; with any actual training at all, he still should've been able to beat her). Both Luke and Anakin lost limbs; Rey lost... her lightsaber. :|
Overpowered. Before the new trilogy we have seen only two people go through the process of learning to use their force powers, Luke and Anakin. We have no idea whether or not the force powers they display at the start are typical of the development of a force user.
At the end of TFA, she's already well beyond where Luke and Anakin were at the end of their respective first movies of each trilogy (both of whom were also introduced to their Force powers later than usual), despite zero actual training.
Unexplained Power Level. See above. Also the first movie in the new trilogy is literally called The Force Awakens. Also, unlike other force users (Kylo, Leia, Luke, Snoke) we don’t see Rey display any new powers, only force powers we’ve already seen. Which would indicate that she is actually underpowered. Where are her character specific force powers?
Frankly, I'd call into question a lot of these 'new' Force powers displayed in this trilogy. I wonder what Lucas would have to say about them...
Perfectly good. Rey is not perfectly good. She knows roughly who her parents were and that they were nobodies. This is setup in both films. Maz Kenata confronts her with the fact that she knows her parents aren’t coming back in The Force Awakens and Kylo Ren confronts her with the truth that she has willing suppressed that she knows her parents were nobodies. This amount of delusion in a person, is kind of a big imperfection. Also, her entire plan in the movie (turn Kylo) fails and nearly results in her death. Also she purposefully hides her telecommunication with Kylo from Luke, which is dishonest and not something a perfectly good person would do.

No personality. See the personality disorder above.
The backstory stuff we only hear about but never actually see is irrelevant to the character as it currently stands (the introduction of flashbacks in this trilogy makes for another hard deviation from the continuity of the first 6 movies)... and why I don't bother to bring up the fact that she seems to be the only human in the galaxy who can understand Astro Droid language (and the only other one besides Han who can understand Wookiee) Lots of over-inflation of very minor details here. And who says the telecommunication thing is bad? (Of course, Luke becoming a completely different character in this trilogy - along with Han and Leia reverting to where they were at the beginning of the OT - is a whole other can of worms.) And if you don't find Rey an incredibly bland individual with whom you'd never really want to hang out (that's what that video meant by 'personality'), I don't know what else to tell you.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#232 Post by Kirkinson » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:48 am

MoonlitKnight wrote:Frankly, I'd call into question a lot of these 'new' Force powers displayed in this trilogy. I wonder what Lucas would have to say about them...
Well, Lucas supervised the Clone Wars TV series, which has much weirder force stuff than anything in the new trilogy, and it was (and still is) canon. I wouldn't presume to know exactly what he would and would not approve of, but if he sanctioned characters using the force to shapeshift into griffins, raise the dead, and conjure robotic legs out of thin air, it wouldn't be very credible for him to argue that projecting an image of yourself across the galaxy is too much.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#233 Post by tenia » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:17 am

who is bobby dylan wrote:She seemed like a clearly competent woman, who was being asked by an unqualified and recently demoted man to explain her every action to him, and that only if he found them satisfactory could they be good because he is a man (however inexperienced and blundering) and she is a woman (so despite her experience, in another battle, which Poe is familiar with!) he doesn't trust her, for grounds that are partly sexist.
The issue is that for this part of the plot, Poe is our proxy. By not telling him anything and especially not reassuring not even the bridge crew of the existence of a sound plan, the newly introduced character Holdo is characterized to us as an unconvincing leader that seems like she'll get everyone killed and clashes with our proxy, the already-introduced Poe, shown as not trusting her. Thus, it creates a distrust from the viewership, which allows it to accept Poe/Finn/Rose plan as a logical and plausible alternative in motion (if it wasn't the case, I doubt people would have put up with how much time the movie spends on this part of the plot). It's not just Poe who doesn't get to be convincing there is a plan : the viewers too. When Poe yells at her in the command center "YOU DON'T HAVE A PLAN", the movie doesn't answer through Holdo "WE DO BUT IT'S CLASSIFIED AND YOU'RE NOT ENTITLED". It just has Holdo not answering and looking like someone who is going to get everyone killed. Sure Poe was demoted and isn't entitled to anything. But we, as a viewer, might be. Note also that Poe is merely demoted to Captain, shown as having a very close relationship with Leia despite of that, and has, again, many crew member trusting him (even, as shown later, over Holdo). He's not a random lowly pilot.

Opposed to that, people are regularly shown as rooting for and supporting Poe, so all this is further undermining Holdo's leadership despite seeming more cold-blooded while supporting Poe's daredevil actions. I'm not surprised some people feel like Poe isn't shown as being held accountable for his hot-headed actions because all this sparked an unnecessary (overlong) subplot and an uneccesary conflict, and in the end, the guy still gets to be commander.

The character itself is a very interesting subversion of the usual Alpha-male sacrifying himself (like Chris Pine in Wonder Woman) to save the day, but I don't think her arc is well written enough to make it compelling. Here, it's even worse because this undermines Holdo's qualities as a leader for most of the movie. She's shown as clashing with our favourite hot-head, cold, unable to convince and communicate, and in the end, chatting with Leia like 2 giggling high schoolers "Isn't Poe so cute ? Awwww".

So it feels all just easy screen-writing to me. I've read reviews saying Holdo is "shown as bad until shown as being actually good all along", which is why her narrative construction (and the complete revelation of the plan) feels like a narrative trick more than anything else : because it mostly is convenient for the movie.
She's shown as very competent, a good leader and with a sound plan, but only after she took all the wrong management decisions, which lead to 2/3 of the movie spent on an unncessary mutiny that could have been totally avoided and which, in the end, probably cost more lives that if Holdo took the time to reassure her crew (and not only Poe) that she had a sound plan.


So again, the character as it is feels ok, but it's treated as a pure practicality by the movie, and that's my issue with it.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#234 Post by who is bobby dylan » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:14 am

JFC, enough with the identity politics bullshit; it's become simply a ploy for people to hide behind when they can't offer up anything of substance in response to criticisms. :roll: The term was coined because the 'patient zero' for it just happened to be female... and no doubt the vast majority of us standing by this criticism would still feel the same way if Rey was indeed male.
I'm not hiding behind anything. You linked to a video to make your argument. I answered each point that the video raises. You can engage with that, or hide behind terms like "identity politics bullshit". To me, every argument you make in this vain is further proof that the motivation behind this criticism is sexist in nature and would not exist if Rey were a male.
Yeah, and those instances lasted all of, what, 1 minute of screen time, if that? They were more like very temporary setbacks. She successfully executes a Jedi mind trick on her second or third try (even without having to do the accompanying hand wave). She wins her very first lightsaber duel (enough with the 'Kylo was wounded' excuse [a contrivance in itself]; with any actual training at all, he still should've been able to beat her). Both Luke and Anakin lost limbs; Rey lost... her lightsaber.
There is no reason to assume based on the two instances we have of force users becoming aware of their powers, that Luke or Anakin's development are typical. Even as masters they aren't exhaustive of the force powers we know. There is no reason to assume that someone could not develop their powers faster than they did or that someone could not be more powerful than them, the last of which there are already many examples in the three trilogies. Assuming she is, why can't Rey just be a more powerful force user than Luke or Anakin? Kylo Ren appears to be a more powerful force user than both of them were and you're raising no objections to him.

None of the films establish the difficulty of executing a Jedi mind trick. We never see Luke practice it or fail early on at executing it for example. Also, the instruction Luke receives in the use of the force in the OT is extremely limited. He gets one lesson from Obi Wan and on his second or third try can see with his eyes closed and destroy a Death Star. Rey gets an equivalent lesson from Maz Kanata (but, she is also a woman, so I guess this doesn't count) prior to the use of all of her force powers. Luke appears to spend no more time with Yoda on Dagobah than Rey does with Luke on Ahch-To. The key to using the force appears to be someone pointing out to you that it exist and then quieting your mind to channel it. It's never been portrayed as requiring much teaching to unlock. There is no reason to assume that using it is equally difficult for everyone.

I don't see the problem with a man, twice wounded, and completely unbalanced in the force, losing the second half of a fight to a woman, who is also an experienced fighter (albeit with a staff) completely balanced in the force. You don't seem to have a problem with Luke, an amateur pilot, with no military experience, not just surviving, but winning every encounter he faces, with well trained military units (known for their marksmanship!), pilots, and auto canons, and successfully making a shot that no other trained pilot even with the help of a computer can make.
At the end of TFA, she's already well beyond where Luke and Anakin were at the end of their respective first movies of each trilogy (both of whom were also introduced to their Force powers later than usual), despite zero actual training.
Again, there is no reason to think that Luke and Anakin are typical of developing force users. And even if the are, there is no reason that Rey cannot simply be a more powerful force user than they are. Your desire that she not be (even though there are many examples of more powerful masters than Luke or Anakin (but, who are all men) and your complete inattention to Kylo Ren (who in the same movies as Rey) appears to be a more powerful force user than Luke or Anakin (but, provoking no response from you) again indicates that your problem with Rey is that she is a woman.
The backstory stuff we only hear about but never actually see is irrelevant to the character as it currently stands (the introduction of flashbacks in this trilogy makes for another hard deviation from the continuity of the first 6 movies)... and why I don't bother to bring up the fact that she seems to be the only human in the galaxy who can understand Astro Droid language (and the only other one besides Han who can understand Wookiee) Lots of over-inflation of very minor details here. And who says the telecommunication thing is bad? (Of course, Luke becoming a completely different character in this trilogy - along with Han and Leia reverting to where they were at the beginning of the OT - is a whole other can of worms.) And if you don't find Rey an incredibly bland individual with whom you'd never really want to hang out (that's what that video meant by 'personality'), I don't know what else to tell you.
The backstory is relevant to Rey being a flawed protagonist, which is a key competent to the supposed argument. Poe understands BB-8. Luke understands R2D2 in The Last Jedi. Yoda understands Chewbacca. Also, the entire premise of the new movies is that Rey and Kylo Ren are two Star Wars fans, battling over the legacy of Star Wars, with one fighting to preserve it and the other to destroy it. So her ability to do Star Wars things well, is explained by the fact that she is an in-universe fan of Star Wars (makes her living salvaging Star Wars, lives inside of a Star Wars house, has a Star Wars doll, plays make believe fighter in a Star Wars helmet, saves the Jedi texts from being destroyed, saves Anakin's lightsaber, etc.)

I didn't say that the telecommunication is bad. I said, that she lies in order to hide it from Luke, which is a clear form of dishonesty. Meaning she is not perfectly good.

Luke, Han, and Leia seem beside the general point, but as stated in a previous post, Rian Johnson has given numerous interviews explaining in detail, the rationale for why Luke is where he is. Obviously, it is disappointing to some people, but there are (to me thoughtful) reasons behind it.

I don't find Rey an incredibly bland character and certainly no more bland than Luke in the OT. I don't fantasize about hanging out with Star Wars characters and the fact that you don't want women you find unlikable to have force powers equal to or greater than the men you do is just more proof of the motivation behind your argument.
The issue is that for this part of the plot, Poe is our proxy. By not telling him anything and especially not reassuring not even the bridge crew of the existence of a sound plan, the newly introduced character Holdo is characterized to us as an unconvincing leader that seems like she'll get everyone killed and clashes with our proxy, the already-introduced Poe, shown as not trusting her. Thus, it creates a distrust from the viewership, which allows it to accept Poe/Finn/Rose plan as a logical and plausible alternative in motion (if it wasn't the case, I doubt people would have put up with how much time the movie spends on this part of the plot). It's not just Poe who doesn't get to be convincing there is a plan : the viewers too. When Poe yells at her in the command center "YOU DON'T HAVE A PLAN", the movie doesn't answer through Holdo "WE DO BUT IT'S CLASSIFIED AND YOU'RE NOT ENTITLED". It just has Holdo not answering and looking like someone who is going to get everyone killed. Sure Poe was demoted and isn't entitled to anything. But we, as a viewer, might be. Note also that Poe is merely demoted to Captain, shown as having a very close relationship with Leia despite of that, and has, again, many crew member trusting him (even, as shown later, over Holdo). He's not a random lowly pilot.
Again, the misdirection hinges on the audience sharing Poe's sexist assumptions about Holdo. He knows that she is an accomplished leader from another battle. He knows that the reason he is being frozen out is because he was demoted and has no part to play in her plan. We instantly see her spring into action and take leadership, when Poe interrupts her and misrepresents his current rank. I never assumed that she was bad. I always assumed she had a plan and that it would be revealed at some point and based on Poe's actions in the movie, she is right not to have revealed it to him. The only more prescient thing she could have done, in furtherance of her plan, would have been to have preemptively put Poe in the brig, which you are not suggesting. Again, that this is all easy screen writing or was pointless to you is fine. I thought if played out well. Poe is given an order (for the second time by a woman) that he ignores with disastrous results and learns from it. As pointed out elsewhere and earlier in this thread the Canto Bight scenes serve other thematic and character building purposes as well beyond just Poe.
Last edited by who is bobby dylan on Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#235 Post by McCrutchy » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:27 am

I wonder if writing all these posts is as exhausting as (attempting to) read them?

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#236 Post by who is bobby dylan » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:52 am

As one of the top posters in this thread you should just be able to tell us :wink:

That said. I share other people's concerns in this thread with the sheer amount of Star Wars content we appear to be in store for. It's strange that so far the stand alone films appear to be having the most production problems. I understand the rationale behind trying to make a new film with arguably the most popular Star Wars protagonist (Han Solo) but, like many have doubts whether this works, with a new actor and when we know the ultimate/tragic fate of the character already.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#237 Post by Michael Kerpan » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:51 am

I am enjoying this discussion -- except for the branding of folks using a fairly well-established and fairly anodyne (until relatively recently) term as "sexist". Given that the term is based on resembling a specific, long-ago, fictional character (and isn't just some arbitrary female name choice), such charge seems over-heated....

However, the use of this term in the context of Rey seems misplaced -- which writer's personal, self-insertional, wish fulfillment is she (this seems to be a key element of the original use of the term, albeit the original Mary Sue character was itself satiric)? A wildly unrealistically perfect character is just that -- a "Mary Sue" (or the male equivalent-name) is such a character PLUS the element of authorial wish-fulfillment.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#238 Post by tenia » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:11 am

who is bobby dylan wrote:Again, the misdirection hinges on the audience sharing Poe's sexist assumptions about Holdo. He knows that she is an accomplished leader from another battle. He knows that the reason he is being frozen out is because he was demoted and has no part to play in her plan.
I think solely reading it as a macho scene is incomplete. It’s interesting, but incomplete. The guy we were shown as a hero and which now returns is being kept in the dark and with the impression everyone is going to die, and not much is done to reassure the crew (not only Poe) that there actually is a sound rescue / escape plan. When he asks again what’s happening, nobody clarifies that people are not going to die, to the point Holdo is sometimes clearly shown as possibly endangering the whole crew (no wonder part of the crew is so quick to follow Poe in the mutiny).
It’s not just a guy asking a woman, it’s our proxy asking a newly-introduced character to reveal to us, the audience, what happens.
The result is : it looks like this experienced woman is taking a bad decision, has no idea what to do and is going to get everybody killed. So let’s follow our hero setting into motion the next 90 minutes of the movie. All just because the movie very conveniently (and quite obviously) kept out this bit of info until it was convenient for it to reveal it.

The worse is that there isn’t much suspense about the plan being better than it’s shown, because the movie isn’t going to kill all the good guys. But the way it’s done felt very artificial to me and undermined what they were trying to do with Holdo.
who is bobby dylan wrote:The only more prescient thing she could have done, in furtherance of her plan, would have been to have preemptively put Poe in the brig, which you are not suggesting.
It might actually have been the logical reaction, as other people wrote about. In any case, that guy shouldn’t end up where he ends up.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#239 Post by domino harvey » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:26 am

McCrutchy wrote:I wonder if writing all these posts is as exhausting as (attempting to) read them?
Do not make a post decrying a member intelligently engaging in discussion again. If you want shallow two line agreements, visit Reddit

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#240 Post by tenia » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:09 am

The worst for me is that yes, these kind of posts ARE quite exhausting for me to write since English isn't my mother tongue.
It's quite easy for me to write small quirky posts, or more technically-oriented stuff like "this restoration is nice looking" or "that isn't a lot of extras".
It's much more difficult to try and express my overall negative feelings on a movie like TLJ, for which my feelings seem to me (for once) quite objectively grounded (while still subjective), and make them both as clear a I can while trying to keep them relatively short. I admit often feeling like I'm not succeeding there, which makes the whole exercise more frustrating even.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#241 Post by Feiereisel » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:48 am

Michael Kerpan wrote:I am enjoying this discussion -- except for the branding of folks using a fairly well-established and fairly anodyne (until relatively recently) term as "sexist". Given that the term is based on resembling a specific, long-ago, fictional character (and isn't just some arbitrary female name choice), such charge seems over-heated....

However, the use of this term in the context of Rey seems misplaced -- which writer's personal, self-insertional, wish fulfillment is she (this seems to be a key element of the original use of the term, albeit the original Mary Sue character was itself satiric)? A wildly unrealistically perfect character is just that -- a "Mary Sue" (or the male equivalent-name) is such a character PLUS the element of authorial wish-fulfillment.
My ears are burning a bit on this one; I tried to take care to object to the modern connotations of the term itself rather than those who use it. "Mary Sue" may have been anodyne at one point, but the specific intent of its recent usage, especially with regard to the recent Star Wars films, is relevant to the discussion. I've also tried to take care to frame my distaste for the sexist critiques of the film in terms of internet at large rather than in this specific conversation.

It's not unfair to object to my foregrounding of identity politics in discussing The Last Jedi, but I feel it's necessary, especially after the upsetting revelation of the internet-goon edit of the film that cut out the female characters. It's relevant, even if we're not directly discussing the identity politics of the film. It's also certainly not a trick to avoid discussing the film itself; my thoughts on the purpose of the unconventional scenario and artful use of anticlimax are available upthread.

My point, after my usual long-winded hullabaloo, is that using more direct and specific language in the discussion of the film allows us to sidestep the malicious intent now associated with terms like "Mary Sue." Though it may not be intended, the troubling subtext hangs on the term; avoiding it enhances the discussion because it allows people to more clearly make their cases for or against the film.
McCrutchy wrote:I wonder if writing all these posts is as exhausting as (attempting to) read them?
Sometimes, yeah. I spend a lot of time fussing about whether or not I'm conveying what I want to convey in a response, and I try to address as much as I can without spending all day writing. It's challenging to balance my thoughts on the film, my feelings about the response to the film, and the scope of this particular discussion, especially given that the thrust of the discussion sometimes shifts as I draft (and redraft). I wish I was as composed and concise off the cuff as others seem to be, but the reality is that it's a messy thing. Or at least I tend to make a mess of it. :|

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#242 Post by McCrutchy » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:12 pm

domino harvey wrote:
McCrutchy wrote:I wonder if writing all these posts is as exhausting as (attempting to) read them?
Do not make a post decrying a member intelligently engaging in discussion again. If you want shallow two line agreements, visit Reddit
This was not the intent of the post, it was merely to point out that these film's seem to engender lengthy and particular discussions in others.
Feiereisel wrote:Sometimes, yeah. I spend a lot of time fussing about whether or not I'm conveying what I want to convey in a response, and I try to address as much as I can without spending all day writing. It's challenging to balance my thoughts on the film, my feelings about the response to the film, and the scope of this particular discussion, especially given that the thrust of the discussion sometimes shifts as I draft (and redraft). I wish I was as composed and concise off the cuff as others seem to be, but the reality is that it's a messy thing. Or at least I tend to make a mess of it. :|
My feelings are similar. In particular, I tend to tune out when people bring up issues of gender and race in popcorn films like these, only because our society discusses those subjects at length so frequently nowadays (and indeed, even with many films, these subjects tend to dominate all conversation), that it would be nice to consider a film like The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi outside of them.

That almost certainly explains my previous post, and I apologize if anyone was offended.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#243 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:17 pm

McCrutchy wrote:My feelings are similar. In particular, I tend to tune out when people bring up issues of gender and race in popcorn films like these, only because our society discusses those subjects at length so frequently nowadays (and indeed, even with many films, these subjects tend to dominate all conversation), that it would be nice to consider a film like The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi outside of them.
It is immensely naïve to expect popular culture to exist outside of the real world. They never did (the reason it seems that way is because you consumed the "old" Star Wars films before these things were on your radar - the subtext is absolutely there), and they never will. At some point people need to grow up and be able to be confronted with philosophical stimulation without considering it an assault on their fragile faux-apathetic bubble.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#244 Post by DarkImbecile » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:37 pm

McCrutchy wrote:
domino harvey wrote:
McCrutchy wrote:I wonder if writing all these posts is as exhausting as (attempting to) read them?
Do not make a post decrying a member intelligently engaging in discussion again. If you want shallow two line agreements, visit Reddit
This was not the intent of the post, it was merely to point out that these film's seem to engender lengthy and particular discussions in others.
Again, it’s very weird that you keep directing these observations outward when you’ve written thousands of words in this thread.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#245 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:38 pm

There are only two engenders

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#246 Post by who is bobby dylan » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:04 pm

I am enjoying this discussion -- except for the branding of folks using a fairly well-established and fairly anodyne (until relatively recently) term as "sexist". Given that the term is based on resembling a specific, long-ago, fictional character (and isn't just some arbitrary female name choice), such charge seems over-heated....
While I'm familiar with the term, I'm not familiar with its origin and I'm not arguing and did not mean to suggest that the term itself in the abstract is necessarily sexist, but that its use as a criticism against Rey in Star Wars, which I am familiar with, is motivated by sexism and that the arguments offered in favor of it, do not hold up to scrutiny. If that part of the argument is unconvincing, that's fine. I do not delight in confronting people over perceived prejudice and also do not think prejudice is reductive, we all are capable of and display varying degrees of it, but that it should be called out and pushed back against where perceived.

If some viewers would have identified with Rey if she had been less capable or talented that's fine. If people prefer Luke or Anakin to Rey, that's fine. Make an argument. The invocation of Mary Sue in this context, I would argue has become a shorthand for people not liking that Star Wars is now about a girl, who's good at stuff, which is what I believe the argument boiled down to in the above exchanges. Rey is better than Luke and Anakin at Jedi stuff? Assuming this is even the case (which I don't think is actually clear) so what? The explanation is obvious. She's a more powerful force user than they are. In the context of these movies none of the characters did anything of merit to acquire their force powers. They didn't work hard, they weren't worthy in some way, they were just born with them. Why does it matter so much if one character happened to be born with greater powers than another? Why isn't Gary Stu invoked to describe, Luke, Anakin, Kylo, Obi-Wan, Quigon, Yoda, Mace Windu, The Emperor, Snoke, Tony Stark, everyone in F&TF, etc.? The movie provides answers and a context for Rey's skill set. She is a Star Wars fan, so she knows about Star Wars stuff. She has grown up an orphan in a hostile environment, so she has learned more and/or different skills, than Luke or Anakin had cause to in theirs.
My feelings are similar. In particular, I tend to tune out when people bring up issues of gender and race in popcorn films like these, only because our society discusses those subjects at length so frequently nowadays (and indeed, even with many films, these subjects tend to dominate all conversation), that it would be nice to consider a film like The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi outside of them.


Discussion around these subjects will (and should) never end because some people will always be fighting for and some people will always be fighting against more equality in their societies.

I don't think a film series that started as a loose allegory for the Vietnam War and that now features, thanks to The Last Jedi, a Vietnamese-American as one of its major protagonist can be completely understood in a context that ignores gender and race. As I've argued, one of the main subplots of the film, the Canto Bight mission, hinges on most of the audience sharing the (in part) sexist assumptions of Poe, which are made clear, "That's Admiral Holdo of such and such battle, not what I expected" in order to buy the misdirection: this clearly competent woman wont explain herself to this clearly insubordinate man, she can't have a plan that she has good reasons to suspect she shouldn't share with him, instead she must be evil or incompetent. If you don't share his assumptions, the sequence plays out differently than if you do. Not saying this is exactly what you meant, but not being able to discuss this, means not being able to fully understand the movie. Will also add, that Poe's sexism, does not make him irredeemable. He appears to learn from his mistakes, realizes the sacrifice Holdo is about to make, before her kamikaze attack and treats Rey with respect and admiration when he first meets her.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#247 Post by John Shade » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:29 pm

So I finally got around to seeing The Last Jedi. I was reluctant to post about it for reasons that should soon become clear--mostly because my opinion of this movie comes with a caveat that might not make it as legitimate as others. This thread is so large now that I haven't been able to sort through the various reactions, with the exception of the material on the last few pages. If I make very obvious observations or ask questions that have either been answered or seem stupid, well I'll try and find out elsewhere in the thread or online. I'll start by saying that simultaneously this was probably my favorite Star Wars movie, and yet I fast-forwarded through a number of scenes. At a certain point during the second half, I fast-forwarded (on the slowest mode, so it was basically a silent movie) any scene that didn't involve Daisy Ridley or Adam Driver. It all seemed pretty boring to me and I figured it would wrap itself up in a way that made all previous events semi-understandable. I am not much of a Star Wars fan and know nothing nor remember anything of the political machinations within the world depicted; that was actually my biggest problem with Force Awakens: some of the arbitrary elements involved in the world-making (maybe it isn't as in-depth as Lucas' old movies? I'm not sure).

But as far as the debate goes about new versus old characters, I have to say I fall on the side of these new characters, though this might be due to the performers. The introspective moments (along with the mirror sequence) between Ridley and Driver were so necessary and unique in a movie where, and I think this is why some of the humor seems forced, the characters always seem so busy. There's nothing flat or wooden when these two are on-screen, plus they're given some of the best set-pieces and visuals to work within. The objections to Ridley seem kind of absurd to me, especially considering the following: when I was a kid I was always thrown off by people who loved the character Boba Fett. Isn't he barely in these movies? Yet I've seen bumper stickers and license plates with his face. And these are fans complaining about characterization for Ridley, even when things get filled out to an extent for her? (Meanwhile, and this is probably coming from my bias, Driver might be the best performer (too premature?) to ever enter this series. I can't see anyone else from this universe starring in Paterson. Feel free to ignore this tangent.) In that same vein, and I'm sure this has been posted, Driver's lines about tearing down the past seemed to be aimed at the fans/George Lucas too. For such a corporate and consensus driven venture, there's something at least slightly bold about this, seeing how nostalgia is perhaps the key to this series.
SpoilerShow
Finally, who is Snoke? Was he important? Did he exist within the '70s/80s movie universe? And wasn't it a relief that they got rid of him?

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Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#248 Post by Luke M » Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:07 pm

SpoilerShow
Some baddie that comes out of nowhere. Apparently not. Nope. YES YES YES
Also, Boba Fett sucks.

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Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#249 Post by Luke M » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:38 pm

John Shade wrote:
bearcuborg wrote:
aox wrote:What about #42? Not a memorable film, but I think it might be the most un-Harrison Ford performance Ford has ever given.
That’s about all anyone can say for that movie. Other than it could appeared on Lifetime.
I like the movie and saw it again somewhat recently; not great, but perfect for 7th graders. Ford has a certain quality that distinguished Indiana Jones from being a James Bond type figure (maybe a bad comparison?)--gruffness is the word. Earlier I had posted that Adam Driver might be the best actor to enter this series...I guess that wasn't as hot-takey as I thought.
We’re just gonna act like Academy Award winner and 4 time nominee Alec Guinness wasn’t in this series? Or Natalie Portman?

Adam Driver probably has delivered best performance in a Star Wars movie but actually being the best? Too soon.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#250 Post by Mr Sausage » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:00 pm

Luke M wrote:We’re just gonna act like Academy Award winner and 4 time nominee Alec Guinness wasn’t in this series? Or Natalie Portman?

Adam Driver probably has delivered best performance in a Star Wars movie but actually being the best? Too soon.
Or Peter Cushing and Christopher Lee?

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