Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Rian Johnson, 2017)

Discussions of specific films and franchises.
Post Reply
Message
Author
cdobbs
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:45 am

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#76 Post by cdobbs » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:21 pm

Having sat through the drab and boring Rogue One this time last year, I had a blast. Glad someone so film literate got to put their stamp on one of these. Also the first time Luke Skywalker has ever been even slightly interesting in his own right.

McCrutchy
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:57 am
Location: East Coast, USA

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#77 Post by McCrutchy » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:31 pm

Drucker wrote:I doubt Alec Guiness, who is dead, has much of an opinion on the new Star Wars films and what they mean to the franchise.
Of course he's dead. To me, that doesn't mean he can't watch the new films. I mean, we're getting to the point where even most of the new dead people only remember him from Star Wars, so it probably behooves him to keep up with the times a bit.

I just wonder if the dislike has grown to a sort of complete disbelief by this point. I forget if he ever saw any of McGregor's performance in The Phantom Menace (for the record, now I mean back when he was alive), but it would interest me to know what he thinks of the story continued on from Return of the Jedi, where his character has barely even been mentioned once, if at all.

User avatar
Shrew
The Untamed One
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:22 am

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#78 Post by Shrew » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:39 pm

Now I'm imagining Guinness as a producer figure in a version of Kore-eda's After Life, unable to move on and stuck playing out Star Wars-related memories for millions of dead fans.

User avatar
aox
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:02 pm
Location: nYc

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#79 Post by aox » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:13 pm

McCrutchy wrote: And I hope one day, George Lucas watches these films, and perhaps when he's too old to care, gives his honest opinion of them. After all, Lucas is the crown meddler of the six previous films, and he wrote and directed a prequel trilogy that paled in comparison to the one that came before it. But as the series creator, and director of the original film, I would love to know what he thinks of these films that are so rehashed, and yet, removed from his own.
My understanding is that Lucas loathed TFA.

User avatar
DarkImbecile
Ask me about my visible cat breasts
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:24 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#80 Post by DarkImbecile » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:52 pm

Having ignored this thread for a couple of days, having moderately enjoyed but never been obsessive about the original trilogy, and having reacted to the prequels, Force Awakens, and Rogue One with varying degrees of boredom and displeasure, I'm pretty stunned to find that I'm going to be the first contrarian in this thread by saying that this was by a good margin the best Star Wars film, period. Actual character developments, very good use of CGI, excellent blockbuster/crowd-pleasing direction, and some remarkable visuals (totally agree with the earlier praise for the
SpoilerShow
Snoke chamber
scenes).

It's not going to crack my top 20 for the year, but for these films it's a massive improvement from the bottom 10 (or lower) that the last several have occupied; if it hadn't been for Rian Johnson's attachment, I wouldn't have bothered to see it in a theater, but now I'm quite glad I did.

User avatar
Finch
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:09 pm
Location: Edinburgh, UK

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#81 Post by Finch » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:26 pm

I absolutely liked it better than The Force Awakens which felt too much like fan service for me but I also found Last Jedi too long by about half an hour. Stretches of it are pretty cool, especially the island scenes, but it also wastes time on casinos and codebreakers and Rosie and Finn when really it only ever needs to be about Rey and Luke and Kylo Ren. On balance, I still like Rogue One best of the Disney era.

User avatar
denti alligator
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:36 pm
Location: "born in heaven, raised in hell"

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#82 Post by denti alligator » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:03 am

To get back to the new film: I definitely did not like it as much as The Force Awakens or Rogue One. My main complaint is the pacing, which is clumsy. The Force Awakens was at break-neck speed with perfect rhythm the whole way through. This one took far too many unnecessary detours and the first 40 minutes or so seemed really poorly executed.

On the other hand there was plenty to like about the film: the salt-planet sequences looked great; the Snoke chamber, too; prominence of Luke (Hammil played him with an equal batch of camp and nostalgic reverence).

hanshotfirst1138
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:06 pm

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#83 Post by hanshotfirst1138 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:07 pm

You know, love or hate George Lucas, he did things that were once stylistically new. This new Disney era feels like post-Conan Doyle Sherlock Holmes pastiches: desperate for another of what these filmmakers all loved when they were children. I wish 1977 George Lucas was still around too. He’s not. I don’t know, maybe I’m just crotchety and old and am still mad that we may never see the original trilogy again. But this whole thing feels like an exercise in empty nostalgia.

Hamill was terrific; I loved his broken-down but ultimately still powerful character, and he played it with just the right amount of over-the-top energy to avoid feeling campy or silly. Boyega & Ridley continue to be very engaging.

User avatar
Brian C
I hate to be That Pedantic Guy but...
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:58 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#84 Post by Brian C » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:18 am

Saw this tonight and ... the wheel-spinning is strong with this one.

I don't think this is the worst Star Wars film but of the main line at least, it's easily the most unnecessary. I have no investment in the series, really, so none of the stuff that's been done in terms of being faithful or not faithful to Star Wars legend bothers me at all. It's just that the real appeal of bringing Johnson aboard for me was that he'd be writing the film, and I guess I just expected a lot more from a story standpoint given how beautifully constructed his previous films were.

But this is just a jumbled mess. Finch mentioned that it was too long by a half-hour but I think way more than that. Essentially, after two of the three movies, this series still has no idea what it's doing with either Poe Dameron or Finn, and the film manages something really hard to do: it gives them a lot of screentime while still making them feel like afterthoughts.
SpoilerShow
I was disappointed, too, in what was done with Luke's character. Does it make a lot of sense to have him not do much except pout and bitch the whole way through, before making him a deus ex machina at the end?

One thing I will say for the film, though, is that it did bring the character of Kylo Ren into sharper focus. I like the idea that this new trilogy is basically functioning - intentionally on behalf of the filmmakers or otherwise - as a sort of do-over of Anakin's turn to the dark side from the prequels. Lucas botched that so horribly, but this series seems to be taking the same idea and doing it some justice.

I'll say, too, that Rey is an interesting character, but for some reason, the film all but sidelines her during the climactic battle.
I guess she shows up to move some rocks, but that's literally reducing her role to a punchline. That seems dumb from a story standpoint, too.

Johnson really seems to be out for blood, too. Abrams killed Han, but this film manages to kill Snoke, Luke, Laura Dern's character who could have been an interesting addition to the series, Phasma, and Hux, and probably some others I forgot. It feels like there's barely anyone left for Episode IX, especially since we know Leia can't be a big factor, either.

Speaking of, the death of Snoke seems like a big gamble to me. From a story standpoint, it seems odd - here's this supreme, all-powerful character who's gone before we even learn anything about him. What was his deal, anyway? Where and how and from whom did he learn the ways of the force? He just appeared 30 years after Palpatine died and seems more powerful than that dude ever did and he's gone just like that, without even factoring into the story much. Very strange.
Again, this movie seemed mostly like the series spinning its wheels. There's just not much we learned about these characters that justifies the rather excessive length. The filler-to-substance ratio is running at about 2:1, sadly.

User avatar
Ribs
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:14 pm

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#85 Post by Ribs » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:23 pm

SpoilerShow
General Hux didn't die. (Which is good, coz he's plainly the best part of these movies.)

User avatar
Brian C
I hate to be That Pedantic Guy but...
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:58 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#86 Post by Brian C » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:51 pm

Ribs wrote:
SpoilerShow
General Hux didn't die. (Which is good, coz he's plainly the best part of these movies.)
SpoilerShow
He didn't? OK, I missed that then. For fuck's sake, did anyone die when the rebel ship slammed into the imperial fleet at light speed?

Arrow
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:02 pm

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#87 Post by Arrow » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:31 pm

[/spoiler]
Brian C wrote:
Ribs wrote:
SpoilerShow
General Hux didn't die. (Which is good, coz he's plainly the best part of these movies.)
SpoilerShow
He didn't? OK, I missed that then. For fuck's sake, did anyone die when the rebel ship slammed into the imperial fleet at light speed?
SpoilerShow
That scene was bizarre because the impact caused everyone around Rose and Finn to be killed or knocked unconscious at least, but not Rose and Finn, then Phasma and her group of troopers march in unaffected as if they were hanging out in another room at the time of impact.

User avatar
Luke M
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:21 pm

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#88 Post by Luke M » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:23 pm

I saw this today and it’s easily the best Star Wars film since Empire. I had a blast with it.

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#89 Post by tenia » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:55 am

Arrow wrote:
Brian C wrote:
Ribs wrote:
SpoilerShow
General Hux didn't die. (Which is good, coz he's plainly the best part of these movies.)
SpoilerShow
He didn't? OK, I missed that then. For fuck's sake, did anyone die when the rebel ship slammed into the imperial fleet at light speed?
SpoilerShow
That scene was bizarre because the impact caused everyone around Rose and Finn to be killed or knocked unconscious at least, but not Rose and Finn, then Phasma and her group of troopers march in unaffected as if they were hanging out in another room at the time of impact.
That's just how lazy the whole script is : crowds keep getting blasted around but the viewer keep wondering who actually really died in these.
SpoilerShow
except for Ackbar of course.

User avatar
Brian C
I hate to be That Pedantic Guy but...
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:58 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#90 Post by Brian C » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:51 am

Obviously thinking about it now I remember that
SpoilerShow
Hux was on the surface for the confrontation with Skywalker. I just had the chronology screwy in my head.

Still, that was an act of sacrifice by Dern's character that had shockingly little consequence when all was said and done.

One another thing that annoyed me from a lazy-script standpoint was how the First Order just happened to have whatever weapon they needed when they needed it. It was like the Harry Potter movies, where whatever trouble Potter got into, there just happened to be some highly specific bit of magic that was just-so tailored to the occasion. Until Potter, I always thought of it as the Batman Utility Belt screenwriting method.

But in this film, it was "OK, we just need to jump to light speed and we're good." But then the bad guys just-so happened to be able to track through light speed now. Or "OK, we just need to get to this planet and it's fortified well enough for us to make a stand." Except the bad guys now just happened to have a battering ram laser thing that no one knew about. I mean, I guess it makes sense that the First Order would have the technology to ... well, knock down a door and all, that's not too big of an ask when you think about it, but why was everyone so surprised about it? I guess either way this is just lazy writing, pretending to tell a story when all they're really doing is a half-assed setup for the next action scene.

But the light-speed tracker really annoyed me. I suppose that it's a just-so thing in the previous films that jumping into light speed was an automatic escape, and I can sorta see the appeal to Johnson of wanting to eliminate that narrative shortcut. It's actually kind of subversive in a way. But what does the film actually do with this? It's just a setup for Finn and the new girl to discard any notion of timeline and galavant across the galaxy in what is bar none the biggest waste-of-time subplot in this entire series and maybe any movie ever aside from whatever was going on during the entire middle section of the first Avengers movie. "Hmm, we need a hacker," they say, as if this is 1996. Jesus, that's awful.
This movie just gets worse the more I think about it. I think that it might be worse than any of the prequels in some ways (but certainly not all ways). It's hard to say because my memory of the prequels is pretty hazy, but while I don't think Lucas's stories were all that interesting, they seemed more thought-out and better structured than this.

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#91 Post by tenia » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:28 am

The various elements you write about that just different incarnations of the same issue : how inconsequential the whole movie is.
It keeps being inconsequential all along, whether it's with the previous Ep 7 or within itself.
SpoilerShow
Luke is said to have closed himself to the Force, but actually he's still powerful as hell. Rey gets there to get trained but doesn't but nobody cares. Poe keeps making deadly mistakes and his fellow comrades keep getting anonymously killed but he's still shown in the end as a fair new leader of the Rebellion. Finn and Rose go for nothing in their adventures, come back, and these wasted 90 min pretty much don't change anything to their characters. Yoda shows that now, seemingly, Force holograms can interact with the real world but it's never used again.

Ep 7 placed Snoke as a powerful ominous character : he gets killed in a stupidest way that some stormtroopers.
We were promised more Phasma : it pretty much seems actually worse for her in Ep 8.

We were promised more originaly and less recycling : the OST never has offered so little new stuff, and the whole movie still is copying the OT : Porgs = Ewoks, Poe = Han, Finn & Rose = Luke and Leia's idealism, Luke = Yoda.

And never forget how Hux apologises to Snoke : "Ooh, actually Sir, you probably don't know this despite being so powerful, but we have a brand new Ultimate Practical Tracker, and guess what : it's on you very own ship !"
* twists his moustache and laughs with an English Posh accent *
And don't get me started on the Big Themes vaguely thrown in the movie (winning war is about making peace, failure is the best teacher). They're so superficially treated, the movie would have better off without them at all.

User avatar
jorencain
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:45 am

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#92 Post by jorencain » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:17 pm

Brian C wrote:Saw this tonight and ... the wheel-spinning is strong with this one.

I don't think this is the worst Star Wars film but of the main line at least, it's easily the most unnecessary. I have no investment in the series, really, so none of the stuff that's been done in terms of being faithful or not faithful to Star Wars legend bothers me at all. It's just that the real appeal of bringing Johnson aboard for me was that he'd be writing the film, and I guess I just expected a lot more from a story standpoint given how beautifully constructed his previous films were.

But this is just a jumbled mess. Finch mentioned that it was too long by a half-hour but I think way more than that. Essentially, after two of the three movies, this series still has no idea what it's doing with either Poe Dameron or Finn, and the film manages something really hard to do: it gives them a lot of screentime while still making them feel like afterthoughts.
SpoilerShow
I was disappointed, too, in what was done with Luke's character. Does it make a lot of sense to have him not do much except pout and bitch the whole way through, before making him a deus ex machina at the end?

One thing I will say for the film, though, is that it did bring the character of Kylo Ren into sharper focus. I like the idea that this new trilogy is basically functioning - intentionally on behalf of the filmmakers or otherwise - as a sort of do-over of Anakin's turn to the dark side from the prequels. Lucas botched that so horribly, but this series seems to be taking the same idea and doing it some justice.

I'll say, too, that Rey is an interesting character, but for some reason, the film all but sidelines her during the climactic battle.
I guess she shows up to move some rocks, but that's literally reducing her role to a punchline. That seems dumb from a story standpoint, too.

Johnson really seems to be out for blood, too. Abrams killed Han, but this film manages to kill Snoke, Luke, Laura Dern's character who could have been an interesting addition to the series, Phasma, and Hux, and probably some others I forgot. It feels like there's barely anyone left for Episode IX, especially since we know Leia can't be a big factor, either.

Speaking of, the death of Snoke seems like a big gamble to me. From a story standpoint, it seems odd - here's this supreme, all-powerful character who's gone before we even learn anything about him. What was his deal, anyway? Where and how and from whom did he learn the ways of the force? He just appeared 30 years after Palpatine died and seems more powerful than that dude ever did and he's gone just like that, without even factoring into the story much. Very strange.
Again, this movie seemed mostly like the series spinning its wheels. There's just not much we learned about these characters that justifies the rather excessive length. The filler-to-substance ratio is running at about 2:1, sadly.
SpoilerShow
I liked the way Snoke was featured and then killed off in this film. A bit of background may have been interesting, but this upended our expectations and, more importantly, this created the “balance” needed in the force. Snoke was to Ren as Skywalker was to Rey. It seems that, if one dies, then the other must - to keep the balance. In the end, this trilogy seems to be about Ren and Rey. It’s their story - not Luke’s or Snoke’s. I do think that the movie is less “fun” than a lot of the other films, but it’s the smartest about the character arcs.

User avatar
bearcuborg
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:30 am
Location: Philadelphia via Chicago

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#93 Post by bearcuborg » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:23 pm

All the Best People wrote:I found it a good film, and definitely a Rian Johnson film, with film noir references...
I could have sworn I heard "The Long Goodbye" during the Canto Bight scenes. After reading that Johnson worked closely with Williams on the score - I'm pretty sure it's in the movie...

This was a difficult film to process, because I'm pretty much a Star Wars nerd who remembers seeing Return of the Jedi in the theater, so it was an emotional gut punch. But after thinking about it - it feels right to me. It's no longer my Star Wars - it now belongs the next generation, with new stories and characters - it's very much been two sequel films about growing old, at least that's what I've brought to the movies. While I appreciate the development of Luke having difficulty coming to terms with his place in history - I still would have like see him in a stand alone. Because while this one expands upon the Force/Jedi history - it still hasn't fully explored it - at least so far on film. Perhaps a Godfather II like film would work with a Obi Wan/Luke story...crosscutting.

As for the movie itself...it's far from perfect. It has pacing issues. I didn't see a lot of visual beauty that others saw. I could have done without Maz and Phasma being in it - Finn and Rose's journey ends up awkwardly forced. However, Leia's use of the force in the opening was jaw dropping. Benicio gave a quirky performance, and his send off echo'd a chilling observation that Rose makes about "the war machine." I also like Rose pointing out animal abuse. Luke's tossing of the saber was a brilliant pay off to a two year wait - that made me recall Bulle Ogier tossing the nesting doll in L'amour Fou. The Ach-to nuns look like Black Narcissis. I wish we got more of them. R2, 3PO and Chewie have moments but not enough - BB8 had too many (his rescue at the end was the low point of the film - along with Rose and Finn's embrace). Poe got better as well, his business with Hux in the beginning was great.
SpoilerShow
I'm okay with Snoke being killed and Rey's parents being nobodies - provided they explore Snoke's past and Rey's mastery of the Force in episode 9. I still don't like the idea of Luke dying - but I get it. I just wish Anakin had joined Yoda when visiting Luke - it would have gave more importance to the prequels and finished the Skywalker arc. Unfortunately Fisher and Driver never share a scene in this series, and that’s tragic. Also, Leia and Rey aren’t given a lot to do in the climax. Finally, the ending - for me, it would have been cool if "broom kid" had been an alien, instead of some generic white boy.
The Force Awakens felt like seeing a long lost friend, this one feels like a goodbye. I look forward to seeing JJ's conclusion.


User avatar
bearcuborg
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:30 am
Location: Philadelphia via Chicago

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#95 Post by bearcuborg » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:54 am

Amazing. Every word you just said, is wrong...

User avatar
All the Best People
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:08 pm
Contact:

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#96 Post by All the Best People » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:03 am

Yes, The Long Goodbye theme makes a cameo in the casino scene.

Ignatiy is higher on the film than I am, but I found his piece well-observed.

RIP Film
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:53 pm

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#97 Post by RIP Film » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:49 pm

Yeah he is pretty spot on. I like the part about Disney aping the aesthetics of Star Wars, and how that basically dictates the kind of story they can tell. There has to be storm troopers, therefore there needs to be an empire, etc. The existing parallels are so cut and dry (Snoke=Emperor, Kylo= Anakin, Rey=Luke, etc.) that they can't really create new stories because they've restricted themselves to this cup game, where the only thing left to do is play with expectations.

The question of "why?" also resonates. The first trilogy was your classic underdog, good vs evil story; the prequels were sort of a greek tragedy, but what is this new trilogy? I kept asking myself: where do they intend to take this? By its conclusion will it have enough of an arc to really justify being a trilogy? Or is Disney once again simply aping the aesthetics of the format?

hanshotfirst1138
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:06 pm

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#98 Post by hanshotfirst1138 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:03 pm

bearcuborg wrote:Amazing. Every word you just said, is wrong...
That’s going to become very quotable in years to come, I think...
All the Best People wrote:Yes, The Long Goodbye theme makes a cameo in the casino scene.

Ignatiy is higher on the film than I am, but I found his piece well-observed.
I used to love that site, but I’ve hardly gone there anymore since they switched to Kinja.

User avatar
Big Ben
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:54 pm
Location: Great Falls, Montana

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#99 Post by Big Ben » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:38 pm

RIP Film wrote:
Yeah he is pretty spot on. I like the part about Disney aping the aesthetics of Star Wars, and how that basically dictates the kind of story they can tell. There has to be storm troopers, therefore there needs to be an empire, etc. The existing parallels are so cut and dry (Snoke=Emperor, Kylo= Anakin, Rey=Luke, etc.) that they can't really create new stories because they've restricted themselves to this cup game, where the only thing left to do is play with expectations.

The question of "why?" also resonates. The first trilogy was your classic underdog, good vs evil story; the prequels were sort of a greek tragedy, but what is this new trilogy? I kept asking myself: where do they intend to take this? By its conclusion will it have enough of an arc to really justify being a trilogy? Or is Disney once again simply aping the aesthetics of the format?
The expanded universe had a lot of these things too (Another Empire, moral ambiguity, evil sons etc.). Before Disney struck all of them (Books, games comics) from the canon a lot of this stuff that's being reused/reworked was already there.

User avatar
denti alligator
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:36 pm
Location: "born in heaven, raised in hell"

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#100 Post by denti alligator » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:54 pm

There seems to be a lot of disagreement about this film, including about those things that make it weak. Any talk of Disneyfication, though, is moot in comparison to the repulsive things Lucas did with his trilogy. Anyway, because my son is 9 and obsessed with Star Wars, I'll be seeing it again in the coming weeks. I can't imagine it will improve, but I'll be able to reflect a little on those parts that--I felt--simply don't work.

Post Reply