Lost

[Antoine Doinel]

I thought that this was one of the worst season finales in the history of the show.

IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE EPISODE STOP READING BECAUSE THERE WILL BE SPOILERS.

Most of my friends pretty much predicted that the episode would end with the bomb going off, and that's fine, but for me the the Jack-Kate-Sawyer-Juliette storyline completely and totally jumped the shark. I watch the show routinely with my girlfriend and best friend and we couldn't believe how pathetic their storyline kept getting. Juliette and Kate both convince Sawyer to go back to stop Jack from blowing up the bomb, and then when they get there they immediately change their minds. Worse, when Sawyer and Jack go for their little talk in the jungle (while Sayid, who is the only one who can arm the bomb, is bleeding to death) Jack's justification for even doing this amounts to "I couldn't have sex with Kate so whatever man!". And then of course, Juliette (who just a convenient flashback about her parents divorce) decides that Sawyer is really is in love with Kate and they shouldn't be together. Am I watching the OC or Lost? Are we going to have to deal with seventeen more episodes of Sawyer and Jack's blueballs for Kate and Juliette? Honestly, they should all just sleep together, break up and move on with their lives because it keeps getting more and more unbelievably treacly.

The things that worked in the episode for me were: Jacob - great casting and really nice that he got a lengthy flashback; Rose & Bernard; Locke showing Ben how he himself has been manipulated by Jacob.

Honestly though, this episode needed way more present day Eleanor and Widmore and what they are planning to do.

For me, the episode would've had way more impact if it started with the bomb going off, then showed the events leading up to it and ended with the opening shot of Jacob and that dude on the island in front of the completed statue (that was a fantastic opening, btw). But yeah, this wasn't a mind bending ending like the island disappearing or Michael/Walt leaving the island. This was a lot drama wrapped up in events that most fans knew was going to happen.

[John Cope]

Agreed on the Jack-Kate-Sawyer stuff which felt numbingly remedial emotionally. In fact the moment in which Jack supposedly fesses up to his reasons for wanting to set things right is likely one of the worst ever (I say "supposedly" because I hold out hope that this moment can be rectified somehow though I don't see how). It's things like that which keep me skeptical as to the show's overall worth; it's a treacly streak that mirrors Spielberg at his most banal and pat. But I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here. For one thing the final Sawyer-Juliet moment was believable and moving and that was necessary. Beyond that, the seeming pettiness of the whole love triangle may just be the inevitable result of the producers' lack of confidence, feeling an obligation to give a sop to the wider audience that constitutes the fan base (a lot of people have an alarming amount invested in the pay off to those relationships you know). But it is too bad as I had begun to respect Jack more as he acted on what appeared to be a larger personal vision, so yeah that scene depressed me some. And Juliet's turn around was also silly and poorly handled.

But that's exactly why the Jacob material was so crucial. As I say it sets the petty stuff into context--almost with a certain compassion for these human motivations (his remark to Locke during the flashback alone makes Locke's sacrifice worthwhile to me and he's my favorite character). You're certainly right about the great opening; it's Lost at its best, giving us information with elegance and economy (the dialogue was great, especially once we realize what it means in a broader sense, and the very idea of only showing the Black Rock at a distance was truly inspired, making the ultimate point about the smallness of all our prior concerns right out of the gate).

As to the bomb going off being a foregone conclusion...I'm not so sure it was. I never believe anything is a foregone conclusion here and when it initially didn't go off I sighed in resignation and fully expected that we were going to see the rumored ending in which the castaways emerge from the Temple 30 years older. Leaving it where it does is a bit cruel I'll admit because the implications are so significant; we have absolutely no idea what comes next, virtually anything could. And, there's already been talk that the reason the episode ends with this moment is because it's designed, or allowed, primarily to negate what we see happen to Jacob not the other characters. That explicit reframing of priorities throughout is why this episode gave me great hope.

[Murdoch]

I felt the same way about the Jack-Kate-Sawyer-Juliet moments, but despite that being a major flaw for me with the episode I still saw it as one of the most compelling episodes of the season - albeit still heavily flawed - primarily because what was shown about Jack's character. After Sayid is shot by Ben's father when Jack and he are attempting to escape from the Dharma village, Jack fires uncaring into the crowd of Dharma people in order to escape, which left me incredibly disturbed. He has undergone this transition from the caring doctor to someone who could do that with no regard. I was hoping for a better motivation for Jack for wanting to detonate the bomb because he has changed so much over the course of the series that him simply destroying an entire island because of Kate seems ludicrous, I think it would've worked better if they had shown Jack as wanting to destroy the island because he hates what has become of him since he crashed on the island, and hopes to forget all the death and despair he has been through. Jack has gone from benevolence to selfishness; willing to destroy the lives of however many people are on the island just in the hope that he can forget all of it, and I think this should have been reflected in his reasoning for wanting to blow up the bomb.

Anyway, both an interesting and disappointing episode, and I agree with Antoine's criticism of the structure of the episode, the reveal of Jacob would've worked better if it had taken place at the end. But I agree with John on the Sawyer-Juliet moment being believable, and I found the moment where Juliet fell to be heart-rending.

However, I feel as if the bomb was always going to go off - much like the one guy said who is the son of the Dharma scientist when he proposed what if the bomb's explosion causes their plane crash instead of stopping it - and that it contributes to the feeling of destiny throughout Lost. No matter what happened with the bomb - whether it exploded or not - that was always going to happen and their plane will crash no matter what.

[dx23]

I'm with Murdoch on this one. I don't like the Kate-Sawyer-Juliet-Jack love story and think that Kate's character has become just an annoyance but other than that, the finale was amazing and the way they incorporated the Jacob character was really fluid. The show's presentation that there is something bigger than the characters themselves has kept everything interesting and even though there are several predictable things, there are a lot of directions where this series can go on and end.

[Polybius]

Mark Pellegrino was great and I hope he returns though nothing is ever for sure with this show.

Especially if he's locked into an epic struggle with the always watchable Titus Welliver.

Did anyone else think of Ozymandias?

[LQ]

Sooo.... thoughts on last night's opener?

[Murdoch]

SpoilerShow

At first I thought the two realities they showed were an either/or thing where one would be what actually resulted from the bomb, but now I think they showed are both outcomes of the bomb, when the bomb exploded it created a rift in time and created two realities and it's not either/or but it's both occurring simultaneously.

I also think that Locke's body is either possessed by some type of demon or god, which I think explains the "I'm very disappointed in all of you!" line he said to all the people outside Jacob's temple thing.

I'm probably way off tho

[LQ]

As usual, I'm half-frustrated, half-intrigued with Lost. The potential avenues of storytelling that these alternate paths have opened up are intriguing, and I'm very much looking forward to seeing how they play out as the season moves forward, but I'm starting to think that no ending is going to atone for the convoluted ...everything...that preceded it.

Murdoch, I think that it was made pretty clear that

SpoilerShow

Locke's body is possessed by the Smoke Monster, i.e. that other dude we saw with Jacob

How about that Terry O'Quinn, though? He was fantastic, you see such malevolence in the pale fire of those flinty eyes.

[Murdoch]

Murdoch, I think that it was made pretty clear that

SpoilerShow

Locke's body is possessed by the Smoke Monster, i.e. that other dude we saw with Jacob

SpoilerShow

Well yeah, but who is the other dude and what is the smoke monster? By the way "Locke" can transform into the monster at will I think he's some sort of being unlike the other characters on the show who have supernatural powers since he seems very inhuman.

As for the episode as a whole I liked the "they never crashed" scenario they're playing out and I found it to be the most intriguing part, but I'm not keen on how they introduced even more characters into the show with the temple inhabitants.

[LQ]

SpoilerShow

Well yeah, but who is the other dude and what is the smoke monster? By the way "Locke" can transform into the monster at will I think he's some sort of being unlike the other characters on the show who have supernatural powers since he seems very inhuman.

Someone suggested that

SpoilerShow

the uh, "spirit" of Jacob may have possessed Sayid's dead body, just as this smoke monster/Jacob nemesis must've taken up residence in Locke's dead body. Heh, discussing this show with such vague and possibly mutable lexicon is kind of a futile exercise, isn't it?

As for the episode as a whole I liked the "they never crashed" scenario they're playing out and I found it to be the most intriguing part, but I'm not keen on how they introduced even more characters into the show with the temple inhabitants.

Yeah, I can't say I'm a fan of even more characters being introduced either. I was hard-pressed to even remember the names of everyone we know of thus far.

[tartarlamb]

I'm glad to see John Hawkes join the cast, but did we really need a character named Lennon to add to the already sophomoric name soup of Locke, Hume, Rousseau, Faraday, etc?

[Murdoch]

Someone suggested that

SpoilerShow

the uh, "spirit" of Jacob may have possessed Sayid's dead body, just as this smoke monster/Jacob nemesis must've taken up residence in Locke's dead body. Heh, discussing this show with such vague and possibly mutable lexicon is kind of a futile exercise, isn't it?

I could see that but I'd hate this to turn into some weird battle of the superhuman island inhabitants. I don't know, Lost's crazy - that's about all I can figure out thus far.

But I like the philosopher name-dropping, so don't listen to me.

[domino harvey]

Final Season of 'Lost' Promises to Make Fans More Annoying Than Ever

[Murdoch]

Not to distract from the current clusterfuck going on in another thread, but after the rather disappointing beginning to this season I found this episode to be one of the best in a while - probably because we actually found out something instead of having more characters crammed down our throats.

SpoilerShow

The whole hell revelation is interesting - not that it's actually hell, but that the island is some type of hell-like force that must be contained - I just hope they don't go overboard in some type of biblical dichotomy of good and evil - meaning I hope this doesn't become too heavy on the Christian mythology and leaves it at the rather ambiguous nature it is now without going into Jack as the messiah or something.

[dx23]

I think this is the best episode of the season so far and easily one of the best in the series. The Richard backstory was due and it fulfilled expectations. The dots are connecting after tonight and hopefully the rest of the season will have a similar tone instead of focusing in the alternate timeline.

[John Cope]

Well, I'm not so sure. I'd really like to hook into your enthusiastic optimism but there was something about the way this whole episode played out that simply enhanced all my lingering doubts. It's a fine episode on its own terms I suppose and I did thoroughly enjoy it, I'll admit. Still, this season as a whole (and this episode was no exception) feels very awkward to me in a way that was already there before but less obtrusive, easier to dismiss as there was so much left to go that anything could be justified.

My problem simply stems from the fact that as we get closer to the end the show still feels almost absurdly vague about really telling us anything substantial and I fear there may be a good reason for that. Certainly Richard's back story was cool and, as you say, long awaited but, ultimately, not particularly surprising. This is no big deal in and of itself; the show does not have to be surprising all the time, can't be and if it was would probably indicate without a doubt that it's all about superficial effect. Nonetheless, the substance we got is deceptively mundane. It seems astounding because it unlocks this ultra-mysterious character but we see immediately that he does not have the real knowledge we seek. It prolongs things that much more while satisfying the fans by supposedly providing Really Big Reveals.

The problem I have is that these details tonight and the aforementioned relntlessly ambiguous answers to almost every question posed by everyone (as well as a resolute and overt avoidance of ever making pertinent relationships clear) has me thinking two things. One is that there really never was that much more in the way of "plot" to go and this is being drawn out inordinately and thus the narrative is becoming unduly frustraing, even more obtuse and noncommittal than before. But this unwillingness to commit also suggests something rather disturbing. It could be that everything will be spelled out all too clearly at the end, though I doubt it. It could also be and is starting to seem likely now, that much if not most of the mysteries accrued along the way (six seasons worth) are ultimately going to be deemed incidental and this will justify a neglect of any genuine attempt to resolve or connect the many disparate threads. The ambiguity itself could very well be used as some pseudo sophisticated justification, making it seem like expecting any more concrete answers is juvenile and beneath the show's real purpose. But this show was never one in which those things mattered little. They always mattered a lot, they defined everything, or at least our relationship to them as vital points of inquiry defined everything. If they are made irrelevant en masse that reeks of an escape from a corner the creators have written themselves into.

I really am beginning to genuinely fear that the cosmic context of all this creates a kind of hierarchy which would make the finer points of the show a moot issue as they all will stand revealed as only ever having existed to serve this specific set of circumstances, this specific relationship. Making those matters worse is the fact that I sense the relationship between Jacob and the Man in Black may not prove to be as profound as we might like or at least it will be effectively reduced to a fairly simple dynamic. The last scene in tonight's episode, which appears to have grabbed so many, suggests that to me. I can't help also note that there is something throwaway in their interaction, a sense confirmed in the dialogue that this really doesn't amount to all that much as it will just go on forever. I know the argument will be that this is the proper tired tone for a couple of entities who have been locked in such a prolonged and static set of circumstances but it irritates because of what it points to, the direction the show may be taking, a set of attitudes made evident.

What will save the show is some genuine sense of the evil at issue, something discernible to justify all this heightened dread. They need to stop fucking around and, when it comes down to it, give us a clear sense of that, malevolence un-corked as it were. They don't need to specify from whence it originates if they insist on keeping that their little secret. They can retain the master key to their game if they wish but the danger needs to be made palpable and explicit (and I don't just mean more scenes of Smokey trashing people and things; we need a sense of his larger potential threat let loose in the world). If this point is attended to then the assuredly smooth finale will be acceptable.

[Murdoch]

My primary reasoning for holding the episode in such high regard is that - despite it removing the allure of Richard's mystique - it effectively, for me anyway, portrayed why he would choose the path he has. Yes it gave no answers and shows that Richard is yet another blind follower of Jacob, but it seems that anyone who worked closely with Jacob cannot help but follow blindly even though that provides little for viewers.

The show seems to be headed to a very Christianity-oriented reveal with Jacob as a sort of God, Man in Black as a demon - or Satan - and Jacob's followers as his prophets. However, such a simplistic wrapping up of the story I think fails for me for one distinct reason which may be ludicrous for others: when Sayid died before he was resurrected Hurley asked him what he remembered about his death and Sayid said nothing, how nothing happened to him between his death and resurrection. While some may see that as him being stuck in limbo or waiting to be awakened or whatever, I think that that comment about death as nothingness hints that the nature of the island, Jacob, etc. lies beyond any strictly religious connotation - especially due to Jacob's laughing off Richard's claims that he is in Hell. Now this may not lead to anything - I hope it does though - I think that if Lost manages to avoid becoming yet another retelling of Biblical mythology that perhaps it can still capture a level of profundity.

However, John, you effectively encapsulate what troubles me about the show as well. I fear the show's writers see ambiguity as an end in itself and that their failure to provide definite conclusions thus far stems from the expectation that delaying anything that would be revealing in the show is their attempt to create profundity out of something that in the end is rather simplistic - i.e. Jacob as "good", the Man in Black as "evil" and that being the sole basis of their relationship despite hinting at something more nuanced with their interactions. With so few episodes left and still so little answered, along with so many loose ends to tie up - anybody else remember that room where Sawyer killed his elusive con man that would give one whatever they desire? - I fear that the writers will end up falling into the trap of a convoluted plot where focusing on establishing and maintaining the strangeness of the island has taken priority over that strangeness leading to anything meaningful.

While I still hope and (weakly) believe that the Jacob-Man in Black relationship will lead to something worthwhile, I suppose I will have to settle with seeing how the characters wind up since my interest has always been in the characters of Lost and much less so its plot. I personally have been very disappointed in seeing Sayid so easily falling to the side of "bad", his entire arc this season has fallen hard for me; he originally was a character who was among the most intriguing and strong and suddenly this season he's thrown into having an evil inside of him. I suppose part of my issue with it is that the only Middle Eastern character on the show has become a morally bankrupt blind follower of Locke's empty promises, that's unsettling to me that one of the most complex characters would be reduced to a stereotype. I just hope it picks up and feel that this recent episode might perhaps hint at better things to come.

[swo17]

I recently had an amusing heart-to-heart with my dad in which his response to me recommending that he try out another TV show (Community, probably) was: "I don't know, these TV shows, you start watching them, they just keep making more and more seasons of them, the writers keep stringing you along, they keep promising you answers, but they never give you any answers, and you're just stuck, week after week, watching a show that doesn't make any sense."

[domino harvey]

See: the X-Files. Or better yet, don't

[Murdoch]

The basis of shows like this, X-Files, Twin Peaks, et al. is to provide more and more questions, answers only satisfy a certain craving of its viewership but its the endless barrage of more unknowns that perpetuates the series. The formula works for some, but it risks either posing questions that will never be find closure or providing unsatisfying answers, if the show immediately answers questions or if it delays it too long the viewership peters out. Same thing happens with series-long romances: have the lovers get together too quickly or drag out their eloping then you lose viewers, it's a hard thing to get right.

[Sloper]

I recently had an amusing heart-to-heart with my dad in which his response to me recommending that he try out another TV show (Community, probably) was: "I don't know, these TV shows, you start watching them, they just keep making more and more seasons of them, the writers keep stringing you along, they keep promising you answers, but they never give you any answers, and you're just stuck, week after week, watching a show that doesn't make any sense."

So true - the very reason I gave up on TV shows. It's like trying to maintain a friendship with an increasingly desperate conman.

[neuro]

One thing- V

[milk114]

hahaha yes. We couldn't read half of what Sun wrote because we have an old 4:3 tv and the V countown covered it.

[Matt]

It was covered up in 16:9, too. At one point, in addition to the ABC bug and the V promo, my local affiliate put up their station ID banner, which covers the entire bottom 1/8th of the screen. They did that before during an episode with a lot of subtitles (probably another Sun and Jin episode) and left it up for several minutes. I had no idea what was going on.

[dx23]

They should torture and fire the hell out of the marketing genius who came up with the idea of having a huge V logo and a clock during Lost.