Astaire & Rogers Collection

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Lino
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#51 Post by Lino » Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:05 pm


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domino harvey
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Re: Astaire & Rogers Collection: Vol. 2

#52 Post by domino harvey » Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:53 am

After catching TCM's Ginger Rogers night last weekend, I finally dipped into this set and ended up watching all ten films over three days. I saw the pictures chronologically and I think I kept devouring one after another so quickly in the hopes that I'd find another film as good as the Gay Divorcee. I never did but I certainly enjoyed the ride and the joy of discovery was spread throughout the ten films... well, nine. The Barkleys of Broadway really was as bad as I'd heard. Worse, probably.

I'm honestly quite surprised that Top Hat, easily the least of the thirties films, is the most popularly beloved-- it was an unfunny retread of the Gay Divorcee with none of the charm. Roberta didn't do too much for me either. Apologies to DHare but the Dunne/Scott storyline was insufferable and only the dueling tap dance routine between Rogers and Astaire brightened the affair. Scott, who has limited range, is used to much better effect in Follow the Fleet, where's he's welcomed into the asshole role. The films begin to blend together at such close range, but though I enjoyed Swing Time, particularly the moments in the snow, the magician sidekick was a chore to deal with and the numbers didn't wow me nearly as much as they've apparently dazzled the experts. Shall We Dance was far superior I thought, and the closest Rogers and Astaire came to recapturing the magic of the Gay Divorcee.

I feel I must defend Carefree as a screwball comedy though-- Rogers trampling through the city like a gremlin, kicking canes out from old men and shattering windows was a hoot, and Bellamy plays a great trick by not stepping back like he always does in these kind of films. Admittedly it's saddled with some horrible songs, but there's something about it that just hit me right. Jumping back, Flying Down to Rio was a passable trifle benefiting from the gonzo finale and Rogers' catchy "Music Makes Me Do the Things I Never Should Do" number, which has yet to leave my head. And I enjoyed the Story of Vernon and Irene Castle more than I'd expected as well-- and you gotta love how once the film ends, this is the menu screen that pops up:

Image

And getting away from the Astaire films, did anyone else see It Had To Be You last week (or previously)? Christ, I can imagine some of the criticisms it might invite but I thought it was nothing short of genius. The way the picture refuses to half-heartedly explain Wilde's initial appearance on the grounds that something so ridiculous would never be accepted by an audience anyways is so ballsy that the film earned my respect immediately and kept it by being so consistently inventive and compelling for the duration. The print looked real clean too so I imagine there's a DVD coming soon-- I hope!

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Tommaso
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Re: Astaire & Rogers Collection: Vol. 2

#53 Post by Tommaso » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:40 am

I had the same pleasure of watching all the films in the big set in a row, though not chronologically, two or three months ago. While I agree that nothing quite reaches the heights of "The Gay Divorcee", there were only two films that did almost nothing for me: "Follow the Fleet" and "Barkleys", the former at least having some great musical numbers in spite of the unconvincing and unfunny narrative and the final staged dance scene. That's a general problem with musical films: the greatest numbers are far less convincing than they could be if they are not seamlessly integrated into the narrative. In this respect, "Swing Time" and "Shall we dance" are clearly among my favourites, and they both also seem to have the best music (even better than "Divorcee") on top of it. "Pick yourself up" and "Let's call the whole thing off" are among the most charming moments the pair ever had on screen, literally making me weep for joy. As did the beautiful romantic moments of "A fine romance" and "They can't take that away from me".
domino harvey wrote:The Barkleys of Broadway really was as bad as I'd heard. Worse, probably.
Yes, truly bad, and so unimaginatively filmed by Charles Walters. I wonder why he was regarded as one of the top men for musicals at the time. If I think of the truly awful special fx in "Belle of New York" and the absolute lack of inspiration even in Fred's dancing in that one, I still shudder.
domino harvey wrote:I'm honestly quite surprised that Top Hat, easily the least of the thirties films, is the most popularly beloved-- it was an unfunny retread of the Gay Divorcee with none of the charm.
I guess the film is so well known because it encapsulated a certain image, especially for Astaire (top hat, white tie and tails), which however only seems to really appear in this film. In most other films, Fred is far less overtly 'sophisticated' but has much more natural grace. That said, it's a great film with both of them pulling all the registers (and of course Horton and Blore are priceless in this one). The only ill-advised moment was indeed the idea to remake the Continental as the Piccolino, which really doesn't work.
domino harvey wrote:Roberta didn't do too much for me either. Apologies to DHare but the Dunne/Scott storyline was insufferable and only the dueling tap dance routine between Rogers and Astaire brightened the affair.
I'm with David Hare in this case. Loved the dancing, and especially the fashion show moments. Not great perhaps, but it managed to blow me away with its style. Same for "Flying down to Rio", but only on the far too few occasions where Fred and Ginger really are in the centre.

I agree with you on "Carefree". The only bad thing about the film are the musical scenes, curiously. "Vernon and Irene" is certainly an oddity in their work together, but I too was surprised how well it worked. A small, nice, and rather melancholic film.

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zedz
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Re: Astaire & Rogers Collection: Vol. 2

#54 Post by zedz » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:08 pm

Tommaso wrote:
domino harvey wrote:I'm honestly quite surprised that Top Hat, easily the least of the thirties films, is the most popularly beloved-- it was an unfunny retread of the Gay Divorcee with none of the charm.
I guess the film is so well known because it encapsulated a certain image, especially for Astaire (top hat, white tie and tails), which however only seems to really appear in this film. In most other films, Fred is far less overtly 'sophisticated' but has much more natural grace. That said, it's a great film with both of them pulling all the registers (and of course Horton and Blore are priceless in this one). The only ill-advised moment was indeed the idea to remake the Continental as the Piccolino, which really doesn't work.
I'll stand up for Top Hat (and if Michael's within earshot I'm sure he will too). Sure, it's a retread of the Gay Divorcee, but I think of it more as a refinement, with the Fred and Ginger team at their best (she's not quite there in the earlier film). I think it's got sharper, funnier dialogue too: "I don't know you from Adam." / "Maybe it's the way I'm dressed." 'The Piccolino' is no 'Continental', it's true, but on the other hand Top Hat doesn't have a misfire like 'Let's Knock Knees'. Anyway, they're both great, and I'm with whoever prefers Shall we Dance to Swingtime.

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domino harvey
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Re: Astaire & Rogers Collection: Vol. 2

#55 Post by domino harvey » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:19 pm

Zedz, you are a crazy man, the "Let's Knock Knees" number is phenomenal. Though I guess if you thought it wasn't funny, you would think Top Hat was! :P At least I can be with you on Shall We Dance.

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Tommaso
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Re: Astaire & Rogers Collection: Vol. 2

#56 Post by Tommaso » Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:47 am

david hare wrote:. But "I'll be hard to Handle" and the challenge dance which all looks like improvisation is the first Astaire and Rogers breakthrough. And one of their best numbers.
Absolutely. And of course I'll always defend "Let's knock knees"; it's one of those truly 'silly' moments, but this over-the-top character makes it so completely enjoyable. Another such moment (without dancing) is the dog-walking sequence in "Shall we dance" which knocked me off the sofa for its sheer absurdity and fun.
On defending "Top Hat": what I like about the film and those following it (where it's more obvious) is the increasing emancipation of Ginger from the role of a mere dancing partner and foil of Fred to a real and important counterpart, and her increasing use of her considerable acting abilities (more so than in "The Gay Divorcee", I think). Something like "Let's call the whole thing off" in "Shall we Dance" and the ensuing roller-skate dance wouldn't work as well as it does if the two of them would only use their natural grace in dancing, but not also their gesturing and facial expressions to such an effect. This chemistry, unsurprisingly, is almost completely lacking from "Barkeleys", and also from most other Astaire films with other dancing partners. Cyd Charisse in "The Band Wagon" being the sole, great exception.

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domino harvey
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Re: Astaire & Rogers Collection: Vol. 2

#57 Post by domino harvey » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:11 pm

domino harvey wrote: And getting away from the Astaire films, did anyone else see It Had To Be You last week (or previously)? [...] The print looked real clean too so I imagine there's a DVD coming soon-- I hope!
...and Warner HTF chat reveals some of the Ginger Rogers RKO comedies are coming to DVD this year!

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Matt
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Re: Astaire & Rogers Collection

#58 Post by Matt » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:41 am

I took their answer to mean individual titles via Warner Archives:
There will be more Jane Powell musicals coming this year through the Warner Archive releases. There will be 200 MORE titles coming out this year (between now and Xmas) through that program. There will also be a selection of comedies with Ginger Rogers.
I would have preferred a GR Signature Collection, but it looks like they won't be doing those anymore.

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domino harvey
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Re: Astaire & Rogers Collection

#59 Post by domino harvey » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:00 am

The Warner Archives are the most depressing good news ever. It is, to quote a particularly memorable Calvin and Hobbes, like winning ten cents in the lottery.

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Cash Flagg
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Re: Astaire & Rogers Collection

#60 Post by Cash Flagg » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:29 pm

The Ultimate Collection is now OOP, but the two Signature Collections are still in print.

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hearthesilence
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Re: Astaire & Rogers Collection

#61 Post by hearthesilence » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:43 pm

In early 2009, it was widely reported that WB was in the process of remastering all of this for Blu-Ray, specifically for 2010 release:

"When upgrading 'Top Hat' (1935), Feltenstein was shocked to see how dirty the floor was on which Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers danced. That dirty floor will be clearly visible when the Astaire-Rogers films make their Blu-ray debut in 2010, as will the wires that support the Scarecrow in certain scenes of 'The Wizard of Oz.'"

Since it's 2012 with no scheduled date in sight, I'm guessing this one's not happening, huh?

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Fred Holywell
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Re: Astaire & Rogers Collection

#62 Post by Fred Holywell » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:47 pm

hearthesilence wrote:In early 2009, it was widely reported that WB was in the process of remastering all of this for Blu-Ray, specifically for 2010 release:

"When upgrading 'Top Hat' (1935), Feltenstein was shocked to see how dirty the floor was on which Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers danced. That dirty floor will be clearly visible when the Astaire-Rogers films make their Blu-ray debut in 2010, as will the wires that support the Scarecrow in certain scenes of 'The Wizard of Oz.'"
Are we sure that the 'dirty floor' and 'support wires' were meant to be seen by audiences -- then, or now? Much of what we can see today, couldn't be seen when these films were released. The filmmakers knew that then, and worked accordingly. Feltenstein knows this now, but acts like it's all a 'good thing', when he knows it isn't, necessarily. Good for publicity, maybe.

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matrixschmatrix
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Re: Astaire & Rogers Collection

#63 Post by matrixschmatrix » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:45 pm

I don't think there's anything you'll see on a properly configured TV with a blu ray that you would not be able to see in a 35mm print.

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hearthesilence
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Re: Astaire & Rogers Collection

#64 Post by hearthesilence » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:12 pm

OTM. Also, some time after I read that, I watched a few of those films at Film Forum's comprehensive retrospective of these musicals and thought, "Huh. Those floors are dirty."

felipe
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Re: Astaire & Rogers Collection

#65 Post by felipe » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:18 pm

Should we still expect the blu-ray collection? It's been 2 years and I haven't heard of it ever since.

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Fred Holywell
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Re: Astaire & Rogers Collection

#66 Post by Fred Holywell » Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:29 am

matrixschmatrix wrote:I don't think there's anything you'll see on a properly configured TV with a blu ray that you would not be able to see in a 35mm print.
I was referring to the fact that sometimes modern technology allows us to see more of what's on a 35mm negative, and subsequent print, than viewers could see in 1935, when "Top Hat" was released. Feltenstein, himself, has discussed how there can be more on an original camera negative than could have been printed back then, due to the technical limitations of the time. Now that we can see some of the detail, the 'wires' and the 'dirt', that might not have printed up back in '35, the question may be, 'should we?'. Are these 'flaws' that filmmakers expected to stay hidden, but now, thanks to modern technology, can be quite apparent today? Feltenstein probably said it a lot more succinctly than I can. Now, if I can just find that article...

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Gregory
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Re: Astaire & Rogers Collection

#67 Post by Gregory » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:01 am

This is destroying my precious illusions that Astaire and Rogers only ever danced on freshly swept floors. Not that I'd be distracted by dust on the floor anyway because I'd be paying rapt attention to other things like, I dunno, Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers dancing on the damned screen for example.

My god... this reminds me of a couple comments I read when high definition first came along, to the effect of, "Oh no, the immortal goddesses of the screen won't look as perfect anymore because hi-def will reveal little flaws in their faces that weren't visible on DVD!" Yeah, really. Oh no, they look slightly more like real women! We can hardly bear to look!

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Roger Ryan
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Re: Astaire & Rogers Collection

#68 Post by Roger Ryan » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:54 am

Warners did decide to digitally erase some of the wires in WIZARD OF OZ. Who knows if they'll clean up the floor in TOP HAT :lol:

I am reminded of when Welles asked for the snow globe shot in KANE to be optically zoomed in on and Vernon Walker told him the shot would be too grainy to match the surrounding footage. Welles then suggested superimposing falling snow on the shot to help disguise the grain. This unusual abstraction exists simply due to the technical limitations of the time.

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zedz
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Re: Astaire & Rogers Collection

#69 Post by zedz » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:01 pm

Roger Ryan wrote:I am reminded of when Welles asked for the snow globe shot in KANE to be optically zoomed in on and Vernon Walker told him the shot would be too grainy to match the surrounding footage. Welles then suggested superimposing falling snow on the shot to help disguise the grain. This unusual abstraction exists simply due to the technical limitations of the time.
Apropos of not much, I recently watched Raoul Walsh's Across the Great Divide, and that features a handful of (undisguised) optical zooms which become extraordinarily grainy. I actually love this effect - it's like the movie goes all 'new wave' for a moment (or gets briefly co-opted by an extraterrestrial intelligence, since the mechanical movement is nothing like the way Walsh typically handles the camera) before collecting itself. Anyway, it's a good place to see what Welles would have been dealing with in the snowglobe shot.

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Re: Astaire & Rogers Collection

#70 Post by anthonyjhc » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:43 pm

Well, it's about time that Warners announced a definite date for the Blu ray of 'Top Hat' (not quite as good as 'GAy Divorcee' in my opinion but still damn fine) and hoping that they add to their list the definitive F and G movie, 'Swing Time', with its standout numbers including Fred's tribute to Bill 'Bojangles' Robinson (though he dances this more in the style of another of his idols, John Bubbles)
Blu ray will of course lift the veil and let us see all the wires ... so we see for the first time that Ginger didn't have to film 28 times the ascent of the stairs in 'Never gonna dance' and end up with bleeding feet, as legend has it, but was just lifted easily to the top.
Anthony (not Woop Woop but nearby)


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domino harvey
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Re: Astaire & Rogers Collection

#72 Post by domino harvey » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:33 pm

I've been going through the shorts buried on all these WB discs and, after watching the short it was introducing, I had a good incredulous chuckle at the little card that preceded September in the Rain:

Image

Because after the short only ran 4 minutes and some change, far shorter than other cartoons of this era, I did some investigating and it turns out WB just completely lopped off the last minute and a half. So, does that mean WB is pretending racist attitudes never existed? Here's the full cartoon on DailyMotion with the ending intact-- the version on the disc cuts off everything with the Gold Dust (here "Rust") twins and simply goes from the fake Astaire/Rogers dancers to the closing of the grocery store

FlickeringWindow
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Re: Astaire & Rogers Collection

#73 Post by FlickeringWindow » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:58 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:33 pm
I've been going through the shorts buried on all these WB discs and, after watching the short it was introducing, I had a good incredulous chuckle at the little card that preceded September in the Rain:

Image

Because after the short only ran 4 minutes and some change, far shorter than other cartoons of this era, I did some investigating and it turns out WB just completely lopped off the last minute and a half. So, does that mean WB is pretending racist attitudes never existed? Here's the full cartoon on DailyMotion with the ending intact-- the version on the disc cuts off everything with the Gold Dust (here "Rust") twins and simply goes from the fake Astaire/Rogers dancers to the closing of the grocery store
Nothing intentional, someone didn't do their research. The master used for The Golden Age of Looney Tunes Vol. 4 laserdisc was uncut, while the 1995 remastered "dubbed version" was edited in its final master since that's exactly how it was shown on Cartoon Network. Since the original cartoon is still pretty short (just under six minutes), whoever retrieved a master for the Carefree DVD didn't know any better. A few other cartoons were similarly edited for the remasters instead of just for broadcast like Fresh Hare (which also has an easily edited blackface ending).

I think a few Warner DVDs used colorized versions of a few cartoons by mistake, too. Even on Blu-ray, they used the laserdisc master of a cartoon for a supplement, even though it was remastered in HD for a DVD collection.

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