Lena Dunham

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puxzkkx
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:33 am

Re: 597 Tiny Furniture

#526 Post by puxzkkx » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:57 pm

Gregory wrote:I've repeatedly been a little disturbed by how frequently I've seen charges of "chivalry," "white knighting," being a "knight in shining armor," or engaging in "male-led heroics" not only whenever a male person calls something out as sexist or even raises questions related to sexism, but even at times when the discussion has nothing to do with sexism and it just happens to be a male person defending or questioning criticisms leveled at someone who is female or in a discussion involving a female character. It looks like a way of throwing aside the actual substance of the discussion in order to suggest (in many cases when it's baseless and unfair) that the other person has ulterior motives of some sort. It's just all too easy a riposte.
This. Especially in such an overwhelmingly male community as CriterionForum this is a dangerous thing as it basically denies anyone who isn't female the ability to enter into any argument regarding female gender representations.

There's a lot of creepy gendered subtext in a lot of films and personally, I think when there is such a subtext that hurts the film's overall quality. I shouldn't be disqualified from saying this because I'm a man and to be a man and say such a thing automatically equates a sort of condescending sexism. And for the record, I'm gay, and the 'fabulous' depictions of the female in for example Almodóvar piss me off to no end.

Basically, any -ism boils down to treating people like things rather than like people - and if any film's inherent value system involves regarding any group of people as subhuman in any way it deserves to be called out on it. To recognise this isn't "white knighting" or "white guilt".

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zedz
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Re: Lena Dunham

#527 Post by zedz » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:09 pm

It's a charge that's intended to relieve the person using it from engaging in the argument at hand, since it avoids the substance of the argument altogether by asserting that the person making that argument lacks the standing to do so. It's a cheap rhetorical trick beloved of racists and sexists the world over - and the thing is that they never suddenly change their tune when it's a minority or a woman making exactly the same argument. Instead, they'll just find different grounds for ruling said argument unacceptable. "Too emotional" or "lack of objectivity" are a couple of popular fallback positions.

onedimension
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:35 pm

Re: Lena Dunham

#528 Post by onedimension » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:34 pm

I, for one, am going in for reassignment surgery to give my criticism of Lena Dunham more validity.

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R0lf
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Re: Lena Dunham

#529 Post by R0lf » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:00 pm

Is it hyperbole to say Lena Dunham is this generations female Woody Allen?

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Gregory
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Re: Lena Dunham

#530 Post by Gregory » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:51 pm

Who was last generation's female Woody Allen?

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knives
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Re: Lena Dunham

#531 Post by knives » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:54 pm

Amy Heckerling.

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Gregory
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Re: Lena Dunham

#532 Post by Gregory » Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:32 pm

[pulls Woody Allen out from off-camera]

"No, for one thing, I never would have made those films with the baby whose inner monologue sounds like Bruce Willis. You know nothing of my work!"

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Brian C
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Re: Lena Dunham

#533 Post by Brian C » Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:11 am

I think Woody Allen is still the current Woody Allen. As with the Dalai Lama, we must wait until he dies before it makes sense to start looking for a new one.

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mfunk9786
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Re: Lena Dunham

#534 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:25 am


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domino harvey
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Re: Lena Dunham

#535 Post by domino harvey » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:44 am

The comments are at least interesting, far closer to approaching self-awareness from either side than the initial article. I thought this comment summed up the current discourse perfectly:
All the writing about this show is now basically a volley of 'who can get the last word in' between the advocates and detractors.

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mfunk9786
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Re: Lena Dunham

#536 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:52 am

I want to know what forum doesn't like the 4th season of Breaking Bad

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domino harvey
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Re: Lena Dunham

#537 Post by domino harvey » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:54 am

Does Armond White have a forum (or a TV)?

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mfunk9786
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Re: Lena Dunham

#538 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:57 am

I think the forum is located in Todd VanDerWerff's imagination, right next to his fantasy courtship of Dunham

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Drucker
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Re: Lena Dunham

#539 Post by Drucker » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:28 am

As someone who works in cable advertising, I can comfortably say that nobody was talking about MTV's I Just Want My Pants Back at all. Good or bad.

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knives
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Re: Lena Dunham

#540 Post by knives » Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:48 pm

He's just embarrassment himself now.

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mfunk9786
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Re: Lena Dunham

#541 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:57 pm

I'm just sadness about it.

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knives
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Re: Lena Dunham

#542 Post by knives » Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:59 pm

That is one ironic post I made.

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jbeall
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Re: Lena Dunham

#543 Post by jbeall » Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:58 am


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domino harvey
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Re: Lena Dunham

#544 Post by domino harvey » Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:11 pm

Some of these criticisms were rooted in misogyny — by men who were likely appalled by the very idea of smart(ish) young women having a show.
I wish I had trusted my instincts and stopped reading there. But oh no, I had to read the whole thing. And now I'm reading the comments. Help!

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jbeall
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Re: Lena Dunham

#545 Post by jbeall » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:10 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Some of these criticisms were rooted in misogyny — by men who were likely appalled by the very idea of smart(ish) young women having a show.
I wish I had trusted my instincts and stopped reading there. But oh no, I had to read the whole thing. And now I'm reading the comments. Help!
Good lord why??? That way madness lies! (I read about three of the comments and got the hell outta there in a hurry.)

zeroman987
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Re: Lena Dunham

#546 Post by zeroman987 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:13 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Some of these criticisms were rooted in misogyny — by men who were likely appalled by the very idea of smart(ish) young women having a show.
I wish I had trusted my instincts and stopped reading there. But oh no, I had to read the whole thing. And now I'm reading the comments. Help!
"You don't enjoy the same entertainment as I do, therefore you are misogynist!"

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Gregory
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:07 pm

Re: Lena Dunham

#547 Post by Gregory » Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:17 pm

She said some of the criticisms were rooted in misogyny, not all of them, nor that anyone who doesn't the show is a misogynist.
I've seen enough criticisms of the show and of Dunham personally that had a clearly sexist or misogynist subtext to think there are patterns of such attitudes, regardless of what percentage of criticisms of the show these account for.

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The Narrator Returns
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Re: Lena Dunham

#548 Post by The Narrator Returns » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:26 pm

For those brave enough to venture into this area of the forum, but not brave enough to read all 22 pages, here are the Cliff Notes for this thread:

"I don't like Lena Dunham."

"Why is Tiny Furniture in the Criterion Collection?"

"Todd VanDerWerff isn't helping matters with his defenses."

"*loud fart noises*"

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R0lf
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Re: Lena Dunham

#549 Post by R0lf » Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:17 am

It's a bit redundant to say GIRLS is racist when it is essentially "stuff white people like" the TV series.

Ok so if people don't agree with the Woody Allen comparison how about Paul Morrissey?

Also. Totes impressed that the one person who defended Dunham in the 22 pages of this thread name dropped Denton Welch!

onedimension
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:35 pm

Re: 597 Tiny Furniture

#550 Post by onedimension » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:33 am

Saw some of Tiny Furniture again last night while my girlfriend was watching on Netflix. Now that the hype has died down, it's a decent film- having seen a few episodes of 'Girls', it also helps to contrast the TF characters with the ones on 'Girls'- so the feeling that Dunham is just offering thinly veiled autobiography has faded, and it's easier to see critical distance in the presentation of the MILIEU.

I do give her credit for getting the quasi/pseudo-intellectual hipster narciss-artist Internet celebrity vibe of 20-somethings who try to compete in status and cultural capital because they don't feel competitive in economic capital (either they aren't, or don't have to be)- I don't think that's new, and I think some of the narcissism and shallowness ideally gets sublimated into actual artistic work as people mature- but the hi!, concept / low effort glib cultural products and the famous-to-15-people accomplishment of Youtube/blog/Tumblr success are accurate..

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