Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#26 Post by AWA » Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:33 am

The Narrator Returns wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:20 am
I concur with swo on Whatever Works being his nadir. Wonder Wheel, which is probably in second- or third-to-last place, at least looks stunning; Whatever Works is pretty blandly-shot (all the more surprising considering Harris Savides was behind the lens) and astonishingly unfunny from beginning to end. Finding out that was a scramble to make a movie during the writers strike made a lot of sense.
Worth noting that in Whatever Works, Evan Rachel Wood didn't reveal she was going to do a southern accent until the camera rolled on the first scene. Woody, at that point, was not in the position to fire her, so they had to work around that. Savides himself said that changed their plans for shooting scenes and made it hard to cut around her performance. Kind of like the smaller mess Jimmy Fallon made in Anything Else - in addition to his bad acting, he can't stop looking right directly into the camera. I rewatched that the other night and lost count how many times he looked into the camera - and when he wasn't it was as though he was having a hard time controlling himself not to. No wonder he's a talk show host now!
The Narrator Returns wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:20 am
That being said, I quite like a lot of the ones already cited as low points. Small Time Crooks, To Rome With Love, and Scoop are very fun trifles, You Will Meet a Tall Dark Stranger at least has a great, stinging ending, and Another Woman is a near-lock to make my list.
Problem for me is Dark Stranger's ending was good - but it should've been the *start* of the movie - a much better movie. It was like a first draft and Woody wrote himself into a much better idea but then just shot that draft anyways. My opinion. And of course I haven't seen it in almost 10 years, so maybe I'll change my mind when I get to that film in this re-viewing project.

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#27 Post by domino harvey » Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:42 am

ArchCarrier wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:38 am
There's a new book out, Start to Finish: Woody Allen and the Art of Moviemaking, in which Eric Lax describes the making of Irrational Man. From the introduction:
Eric Lax wrote:While this book has as its spine the making of Irrational Man, in the eighteen months that bookended it he also made Magic in the Moonlight, helped transform Bullets over Broadway into a Broadway musical, wrote Café Society, and created Crisis in Six Scenes, a six-part series for Amazon that he later acted in and directed. We were in conversation throughout, talking in his home, in his screening room, on walks along Manhattan’s streets. I was with him all through the making of Irrational Man. He gave me access without restriction as he scouted locations, decided on costumes, and considered his casting. I sat by him as he worked and we talked between shots about what he was doing, was with him in the editing room for both Magic in the Moonlight and Irrational Man, and watched as he screened several versions of each. I was present for all I describe here, taking notes as he worked and of what he and others said. More than thirty hours of longer, more formal interviews were recorded.
Looks interesting.
Forgot about this til seeing it below my September post, but there’s copies up on eBay for $3.98 shipped. Sounds pretty interesting and is maybe another reason to watch/rewatch Irrational Man

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#28 Post by The Narrator Returns » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:05 am

That book is interesting (especially for the discussion of Irrational Man's pre-production), but it's not a patch on the similar Woody Allen On Location, which details Radio Days's production literally shot-by-shot, take-by-take. That book is invaluable if you're an Allen fan, or even if you're just curious about the nitty-gritty of the moviemaking process.

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#29 Post by domino harvey » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:13 am

Thanks for the tip, just picked that one up too!

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#30 Post by AWA » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:40 am

The Narrator Returns wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:05 am
That book is interesting (especially for the discussion of Irrational Man's pre-production), but it's not a patch on the similar Woody Allen On Location, which details Radio Days's production literally shot-by-shot, take-by-take. That book is invaluable if you're an Allen fan, or even if you're just curious about the nitty-gritty of the moviemaking process.
Agreed - the "On Location" book is incredible (even if, towards the second half of the production, it becomes apparent Woody regrets the decision having allowed someone access to the production like that). The "Conversations..." book by Eric Lax is also essential reading (it has had a few minor updates since the first pressing and undoubtedly parts of the new "Making Of" book will eventually be transplanted into that one.

Going way back for some interesting insight is the other Lax book, "Woody Allen On Being Funny", which is an interesting read knowing what was about to happen and some frank commentary from Woody at the time about his transition into filmmaking in the very early stages of film being just one of his artistic / comedic outputs.

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#31 Post by Dr Amicus » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:44 am

I'll use this as an excuse / opportunity for a rewatch of as many as I can fit in - as well as catching up on those I haven't seen (from Hollywood Ending onwards is patchy).

I've been a major Allen fan for over 30 years, ever since seeing Love and Death on TV (the "My father had a small but valuable piece of land" gag is the point I usually give for realising I was going to get Allen). A season on the BBC in the mid-late 80s which was pretty comprehensive was a big deal for me and several school friends - IIRC they were on Monday nights, and the following morning was always taken up with a discussion on the previous night's film. I forget which were most popular - I think Sleeper was always well liked as was Manhattan, but Stardust Memories only had one defender (not me - it took me another viewing a few years later for this one to click).

From comments above, although often I haven't seen them since they came out, Sweet and Lowdown is one of my favourites, Small Time Crooks was OK but the cellar / pipe section made me laugh so much my wife thought I'd never stop. I'm really looking forward to revisiting the films from the late 80s and early 90s - they're the ones It's been longest since I watched and usually have only watched once. For some reason, I'm partcularly anxious for a rewatch of Shadows and Fog - I remember almost nothing about this one at all.

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#32 Post by Lighthouse » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:31 am

domino harvey wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:38 pm


Any film with Woody Allen credited as director is eligible. TV movies, like the 90s Don’t Drink the Water, shorts, and series, like Crisis in Six Scenes, are eligible. Features for which Allen only starred or wrote the screenplay are not eligible.

I would propose one exception.
Unlike all the other films, in which he only acted, Play It Again Sam is a total Allen film in any respect. Not sure about What’s New, Pussycat?, the probable other exception, cause I watched it only once some decades ago, and it seemed then not that much to be dominated by Allen, but Play It Again Sam was for me doubtless always one of his films, and should be eligible. What do you think?

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#33 Post by John Shade » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:12 am

From the introductory remarks, this is going to be interesting: a number of films that I don't like others consider favorites, and meanwhile I'm over here absolutely loving To Rome with Love and especially Scoop (my username was almost another JS: Jade...Spence). I'll rewatch Magic in the Moonlight for someone else to give the low expectations yet incredibly witty and silly Scoop another go.

This is just a preface for me. I'll try to be more thoughtful; from the start I can say that I have really enjoyed many of Allen's films from the 00s and 10s. It may even be that Midnight in Paris tops my list. I have a hunch that this film will be the one that outlasts them all...

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#34 Post by Rayon Vert » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:50 am

Lighthouse wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:31 am
I would propose one exception.
Unlike all the other films, in which he only acted, Play It Again Sam is a total Allen film in any respect.
I thought about proposing this too, but domino was very clear and adamant-sounding in the intro. Yeah it's based on his play, the screenplay is his, and he plays the main character, the usual Allen persona of those years. Not only that, the other main actors (Keaton, Roberts) are his usual crew. I can't see how he's not the film's "auteur"! But my main reason was that it's one of my favorites. I'll rewatch it anyway to see where it would fall on my own list if included, which could be near the top.

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#35 Post by swo17 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:05 pm

Why didn't he direct it?

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#36 Post by Calvin » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:35 pm

I doubt that I'll find the time to re-watch all of Allen's features, but I should easily be able to tick off the few that I've yet to see and I've started at the beginning with What's Up, Tiger Lily?. Well, umm...there are a few chuckles, but I wouldn't think that they were enough to sustain Allen's original 60 minute running time, never mind the 80-minutes that the studio expanded it to by adding musical numbers by The Lovin' Spoonful. which pop up inexplicably, and padding it out with more footage from International Secret Police: Key of Keys. Needless to say that this won't be making my list and I would be surprised to see it feature highly in the final tally. But Jonathan Rosenbaum thinks it's Allen's funniest film so horses for courses, I suppose...

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#37 Post by Rayon Vert » Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:01 pm

swo17 wrote:Why didn't he direct it?
Allen said he was already filming Everything You Etc. and didn’t want to do again what he had done for a year on Broadway.

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#38 Post by AWA » Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:30 pm

swo17 wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:05 pm
Why didn't he direct it?
He felt it was beyond his scope to handle as a director, being a more "realistic" story with genuine characters. He handed it over to Herbert Ross and definitely learned plenty from him in doing so.

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#39 Post by domino harvey » Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:49 pm

I also rewatched What's Up, Tiger Lily? and my response to it is about what I remembered. This kind of thing has never, ever been funny, whether it's the UCB redubbing It's a Wonderful Life or Bad Lip Readings, silly dubs always end up leaning into non-sequitur nonsense due to the constraints of the format. This one opens with two huge belly-laugh lines
SpoilerShow
"Name three presidents" and "An Oriental!"
that give false hope for a bit, but boy this just keeps going and going and runs out of ideas fast. Funny that I'd forgotten it was in 'Scope, including the Allen-starring bits (which are by far the best thing here: loved his joke about how the Japanese film is full of lovely scenes of rape, especially after suffering through one too many Japanese films from this period), meaning everyone calling Manhattan his first 'Scope film was off. But this is certainly an asterisk of a film. Speaking of asterisks, sorry folks, I love Play It Again, Sam too and it'd make my list... but he didn't direct it. However, if ten users weigh in here or via PM telling me they think it should count, I'll allow it.

Also, back to Tiger Lily-- last night while looking for reviews of the Allen book Narrator rec'd, I actually stumbled upon Rosenbaum's article where he praises the film and the whole thing is the best evidence yet to support my claim that he's just Liberal Armond White. It's a hit piece on Allen in which he argues Allen has no defining film style or consistency of vision-- in 1990! He bolsters Jerry Lewis instead (who I also love, but who has nothing to do with Allen apart from Rosenbaum's fixation on their respective popularity in France), and he compares Allen repeatedly to Mel Brooks. Now, there is literally nothing Brooks and Allen have in common other than their Jewishness, and when one reads Rosenbaum going into attacks on the New York intelligentsia and so on, it's hard to not read it as vaguely anti-Semitic at best. Rosenbaum additionally seems to think that the fact that Allen finds his films in the editing room means he's not a real creative visionary, which is... an opinion.

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#40 Post by knives » Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:58 pm

Not to defend Rosenbaum too hard, but I'm pretty sure they got their start on the same shows and for a while had convergent careers not to mention how their early films (I'm thinking 12 Chairs and The Producers for Brooks) do have a great similarity even though they would quickly, certainly by 1990, be distinguishable.

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#41 Post by domino harvey » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:00 pm

A compelling defense, except Rosenbaum's detour specifically discusses History of the World, Part I!

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#42 Post by knives » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:15 pm

I do totally acknowledge he was about a decade too late!

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#43 Post by swo17 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:57 pm

GoodOldNeon wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:38 pm
Can anyone recommend good DVD releases of Don't Drink the Water, Deconstructing Harry, and Sweet and Lowdown? These are the only Allens I've yet to see.
domino harvey wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:45 pm
I have the US releases for Deconstructing Harry and Don’t Drink the Water and I don’t remember any issues, but haven’t watched them in a while
I presume the reason he was asking about Deconstructing Harry is that the US DVD has dropped off the face of the earth

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#44 Post by domino harvey » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:01 pm

There’s a like new copy on eBay right now for $19.99 shipped

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#45 Post by domino harvey » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:07 pm

I really like the French poster for it too, which popped up in my eBay search:

Image

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#46 Post by swo17 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:12 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:01 pm
There’s a like new copy on eBay right now for $19.99 shipped
Thanks for the tip! Looking forward to the "Interactive Menus!"

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#47 Post by Rayon Vert » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:06 am

AWA wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:18 am
A Midsummer's Night's Sex Comedy is also criminally underrated. It is a light project, but it is still plenty of fun, funny, some great lines (comedic and serious) throughout and the cinematography is the best overall colour photography Gordon Willis did with Woody, which is saying something. It's overshadowed by the gigantic achievements that proceeded it and the run of 5 perfect films that Woody produced to follow it, but it is still a very good film. If it came out today to that level of quality, it would be celebrated as a major return to form or the best Woody film since ___________ (80's or 90's Woody film that critics like to think is the cutoff point but are always wrong). It is the Magic In The Moonlight of it's day? :-k
I agree. I don't think it has anything to envy from the classic films on either side of it. Except for the conclusion and the last ten minutes or so that are a bit of a let-down with what preceded, this is honed to near perfection. The conception and writing are clever, witty and delightful, and the film features six solid performances, and an especially well-drawn character in the Bertrand Russell-like empirical-minded philosopher. Allen’s philosophical concerns are present, most centrally the precariousness of love between men and women, but they’re given a lighter treatment. And then there's wonderful lightly soft-focus photography, as you mentioned.

I really wasn't thrilled at all with Magic in the Moonlight, and it definitely replayed the same skeptic vs. spiritualism territory. But you can only replay the we-don’t-really-know-anything-about-the-greater-meaning-but-there’s-magic-in-this-thing-called-love theme so many times until it starts to feel tired.

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#48 Post by GoodOldNeon » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:18 am

domino harvey wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:01 pm
There’s a like new copy on eBay right now for $19.99 shipped
I actually ended up going for the UK DVD from 2014 by Kaleidoscope Home Entertainment, which is available on Amazon UK for £4.50. The reviews didn't mention anything about it being cropped to 4:3, but we'll see for sure when the disc arrives.

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#49 Post by Lemmy Caution » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:06 am

I recall not liking Deconstructing Harry.
On re-watch, it's not bad.
There's a lot of distractions and diversions as we get scenes enacting Harry's short stories. This also necessitates a large cast, and its chock full of stars in bit parts. Robin Williams, Julie Kavner, Kistie Alley, Demi Moore, Billy Crystal, Richard Benjamin, Tobey Maguire, etc. Early Paul Giamatti and Jennifer Garner appear without dialogue.

One problem is a lot of the jokes aren't funny. And many of the ideas (esp. the out-of-focus actor) go nowhere. Oddly, late in the film Woody Allen's character also briefly goes blurry, but then it's dropped abruptly. The notion of showing up to a university honoring ceremony with a black hooker, a dead body and his kidnapped son has all sorts of possibilities. But the set up is rather poorly executed, and then it mostly falls flat with little development. The dead body idea decomposes. Everyone at the university is worthless and I started thinking of various ways I would have improved that whole roadtrip.

But probably the central issue is that it's just hard to believe that the Woody Allen character is a boozing, pill-popping, whore patronizing, philanderer. I just think he'd develop a different exterior and approach to the world if that was the life he was living. And if you can't believe in the central character then it just becomes a bunch of scenes being played out in a film. I also didn't care for Julia Louis-Dreyfus' stagey acting. While the intentionally choppy editing didn't bother me, it also didn't seem to add anything except being another distraction. Maybe it's supposed to support the "deconstructing" concept which isn't really undertaken. But the film does have a fragmentary episodic approach which I guess could be said to loosely fit in with deconstruction.

There's a good deal that feels like retreads of early Woody Allen films and writing. And actually that's part of the storyline, as his character specifically says that some of the stories are ones he wrote when he was young. And when he introduces his girlfriend to Billy Crystal seemed a copy of Diane Keaton meeting Paul Simon in Annie Hall.

The interesting thing is that the last 30+ minutes of the film -- from the upstate NY roadtrip stopover at his half-sister's house on -- the film takes on a different pace and the timing is quite good and it feels a lot like earlier Woody Allen, as opposed to the somewhat disjointed and sloppy film it's been up to then. Suddenly the jokes become funny, the sarcasm has an edge to it, and the flow is so much better.

If the whole film had the polish and humor and edge that the last third attains, this could be a classic Woody Allen film. Probably if the last 1/3, or something of that quality, had opened the film and then it went into a decent but somewhat lackluster direction, I probably would rate the film higher. Anyway, it's a better film than I remembered. Fairly lively, with a lot going on. Oddly it seemed fairly long to me, but at 1'36 is pretty much a standard Woody Allen length film.
Last edited by Lemmy Caution on Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Auteur List: Woody Allen - Discussion and Defenses

#50 Post by AWA » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:42 pm

Rayon Vert wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:06 am
I agree. I don't think it has anything to envy from the classic films on either side of it. Except for the conclusion and the last ten minutes or so that are a bit of a let-down with what preceded, this is honed to near perfection. The conception and writing are clever, witty and delightful, and the film features six solid performances, and an especially well-drawn character in the Bertrand Russell-like empirical-minded philosopher. Allen’s philosophical concerns are present, most centrally the precariousness of love between men and women, but they’re given a lighter treatment. And then there's wonderful lightly soft-focus photography, as you mentioned.
Another great quality of A Midsummer's Night Sex Comedy is the exceptional period set design. The first historical period piece of Woody's career, it is something he has become known for doing great work in remarkable detail - thanks in large part to his collaborations with set designer Santo Loquasto. Woody lost many of his regular crew members in the late 90's and early 00's, but he did get Loquasto back. He has done a remarkable job on Woody's films with production design, both in period pieces and contemporary layouts. The country home in AMSNSC was built specifically for the production but you'd never know it. Combine those details with Gordon Willis' photography and it makes for some terrific eye candy.

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