Criterion and Public Domain Films

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denti alligator · #1 Post by **denti alligator** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:23 pm

In the 2002 re-print of The Complete Films of Alfred Hitchcock by Robert A. Harris & Michael S. Lasky the following films are listed as being available from Janus Film for rental. "16mm rental source," is the precise wording. Does that mean Janus owns prints for these? Are these potential Criterion releases (two are already in the collection)?

The Lodger
The Ring
The Farmer's Wife
Champagne
The Manxman
Blackmail
Murder!
The Skin Game
Rich and Strange
Number Seventeen
The 39 Steps
Secret Agent
Sabotage
Young and Innocent
The Lady Vanishes

9 of these (all but the first one and the last 5) are also coming out in France under Studio Canal, so that's also a good sign.

#2 Post by **zedz** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 9:07 pm

If these titles are public domain, the Janus link would be much less crucial than the availability of good elements, and if Janus only holds 16mm prints of these, they're not going to be a great source. Thus I don't think we should infer too much from the connection.

ianungstad · #3 Post by **ianungstad** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:26 pm

Well there are lots of great cult films in the public domain...unlike the Jodorowsky bit I had posted this is completely random speculation but I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the bigger public domain films show up in this line at some point like A Boy and His Dog; Bad Taste; and Night of the Living Dead.

In Heaven · #4 Post by **In Heaven** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:20 pm

Bad taste is in public domain? I've never heard that before...

And I see no reason for a Criterion NotLD, the current mill. edition is great.

ianungstad · #5 Post by **ianungstad** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:33 pm

There are good versions of Night of the Living Dead out there, maybe Criterion could offer a new perspective...honestly I didn't even really like the movie. I just wouldn't be surprised since it would probably sell lots and they wouldn't have to pay money for the rights so it'd be a cash cow fore sure.

I don't know why Bad Taste is in the public domain, remembering reading about it years ago. Even on amazon you can pick between Anchor Bay, Jef Films, and some other edition that has no studio listed, and is likely some dude making homemade dvds on his computer that somehow gotten an amazon listing. I remember picking the dvd for like 5 bucks new here in Canada, which is always a giveaway for public domain. Would be an interesting story to find out why this is., unless I'm somehow mistaken. Any help here?

I always was sort of miffed about why Criterion charge such high prices for films they didn't have to buy the rights for. Some have good special features so it makes some sort of sense, but Oliver Twist? Beauty and the Beast? Nanook of the North? The Most Dangerous Game? Diabolioque? amongst countless others. Just another example of their overpriced and bizzare marketing strategy.

DrewReiber · #6 Post by **DrewReiber** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:09 pm

In Heaven wrote:And I see no reason for a Criterion NotLD, the current mill. edition is great.

I wholeheartedly concur. I also doubt they would be able to get Romero to revisit his film in that capacity again. It would just be nice if people stop taking advantage of the film's copyright mistake and just emphasize the great work Elite did back in the day.

As for Bad Taste, Anchor Bay has a pretty good relationship with Peter Jackson, so I doubt anyone else is going to be doing a special edition of it (copyright or not). Hell, I bet we'll see a Divimax Series edition within the next year or two.

Narshty · #7 Post by **Narshty** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:13 am

ianungstad wrote:I always was sort of miffed about why Criterion charge such high prices for films they didn't have to buy the rights for. Some have good special features so it makes some sort of sense, but Oliver Twist? Beauty and the Beast? Nanook of the North? The Most Dangerous Game? Diabolioque? amongst countless others. Just another example of their overpriced and bizzare marketing strategy.

Or perhaps your overcooked and bizarre imagination. They're all part of the Janus catalogue - all of them were purchased.

There was an interview with one of the Criterion producers back on a website I don't think is around anymore where it was stated that Criterion, as a company rule, did not work on public domain films unless they still had an original licensor somewhere (ie. My Man Godfrey from Universal). This wasn't simply because of any possible copyright issues, but so they could ensure they got the high-quality source elements they needed for a great transfer.

ianungstad · #8 Post by **ianungstad** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:34 am

Well my ""bizarre imagination" has seen The 39 Steps, The Lady Vanishes, The Most Dangerous Game (heck this one even has the same transfer as the criterion version to boot!), Charade, Carnival of Souls, in the cheapo bin at just about any walmart store I've ever been ito. Since Criterion "owns" the rights to these films I'd better send them an email.

Narshty · #9 Post by **Narshty** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:07 am

I'm sure they're aware, but the point is Criterion themselves makes sure they always have a rights holder to begin with (ie. MPI for Carnival of Souls, Universal for Charade) so they can get hold of the best quality film materials to work from. The people making these public domain editions/bootlegs do not own original negatives, interpositives, fine-grain masters and all that stuff.

Gordon · #10 Post by **Gordon** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:50 am

I'll just throw this question out there: Which Public Domain films would you like Criterion/Eclipse to release?

ianungstad · #11 Post by **ianungstad** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:33 pm

This site has a decent list of some of the PD titles:

Suspiria
A boy and His Dog
Bad Taste
The Brain that wouldn't die
and maybe a boxset of the cheesy and racist FU Manchu movies.

As for non public domain....Flesh Gordon for sure!

DrewReiber · #12 Post by **DrewReiber** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:39 pm

ianungstad wrote:Suspiria

Since when was this public domain?

The Fanciful Norwegian · #13 Post by **The Fanciful Norwegian** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:41 pm

There's a lot of other suspect things about that list. It's been established that Metropolis is not a public domain title, at least not any longer. I've never heard anyone claim that The Seventh Seal and Persona are public domain, even though both are well-known titles -- given the reknown of The Seventh Seal in particular, you'd think there'd be a number of PD versions out there, but there's just the Criterion DVD and the Home Vision VHS. The post-1979 Italian films on the list (Casablanca Express, Phenomena, and Tenebre) are almost certainly not PD, since Italy signed onto the Paris revisions of the Berne Convention in 1979 and those revisions stipulate that any works published in a member country are automatically copyrighted, with no registration or copyright notice required (meaning it's pretty much impossible for a film to be released without copyright protection). Bad Taste seems pretty dubious as well, but New Zealand never signed onto the Paris revisions so I can't disprove it.

Derek Estes · #14 Post by **Derek Estes** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:18 pm

Along with Detour, a couple more PD titles I would love to see released properly are Fritz Lang's Scarlet Street (possibly to coincide with Renoir's La Chienne), Delmer Daves' The Red House, and Penny Serenade.

DrewReiber · #15 Post by **DrewReiber** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:54 pm

I don't think that this has much to do with the sublabel anymore. Does anyone have a "list" going on containing all the material rumored for label, or is it just whatever is in this and the "No Speculation Forthcoming list" thread?

pzman84 · #16 Post by **pzman84** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 2:58 am

I would like to see a Film Noir Box Set with Detour, DOA, the Big Combo and other public domain titles. I already know there is one with Detour and DOA but it is not Criterion (not even Kino or Koch Lorber). There is just something more magical about a Criterion DVD (that is probably why I pay astronomical sums for them). Anyway, if Janus was smart they would strike up new prints of some public domain titles, copyright them, and whenever there is a film festival, get money off of leasing the new prints.

Jun-Dai · #17 Post by **Jun-Dai** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:31 am

There's a lot of other suspect things about that list. It's been established that Metropolis is not a public domain title, at least not any longer.

When/how was this established? More importantly, how can it be "no longer" public domain. Once something is in the public domain it cannot cease to be in the public domain, unless you aren't talking about legal considerations but rather practical ones.

Ashirg · #18 Post by **Ashirg** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:06 am

There's a big misconception about public domain films. Even if the film is in public domain, Criterion cannot do a good job with the release unless they licence good quality prints from the studio or company who initially released the film. See for example, their releases of Charade (from Universal) or Carnival of Souls (from producers). I doubt they can do justice to, say, Royal Wedding, since it's owned by Turner/Warner and they don't licence their material. Only Warner can bring us good quality release of that title. Scarlet Street is a possible release since it's owned by Universal and they have a relationship with Criterion...

The Fanciful Norwegian · #19 Post by **The Fanciful Norwegian** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:12 pm

When/how was this established? More importantly, how can it be "no longer" public domain. Once something is in the public domain it cannot cease to be in the public domain, unless you aren't talking about legal considerations but rather practical ones.

It is quite possible for a public domain work to come out of the public domain. Metropolis was brought back into copyright in the U.S. by the 1994 revisions to GATT, which went into effect in 1996. Under those revisions, a pre-1964 work still copyrighted in its original country of publication but whose copyright has lapsed in another GATT member country due to a failure to properly renew can have its copyright restored, thus bringing it out of the public domain. Because Metropolis is still copyrighted in Germany (also a GATT signatory) and because the film only fell into the public domain in the U.S. due to a failure to renew, it was covered under the GATT agreement and its copyright was restored. It is now owned by the Friedrich Wilhelm Murnau Foundation (cite here -- scroll down to the "Bibliographic details" section).

#20 Post by **Jeff** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:34 pm

Indeed, many titles were taken out of public domain due to GATT. You'll find a number of the British Hitchcocks by going here, and looking at the August 22, 1997 listing. Carlton (Rank) is the copyright holder of those titles. Just because multiple PD companies are still releasing them, doesn't mean that they are doing so legally.

kblz · #21 Post by **kblz** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:25 pm

I've always wanted to see a Criterion edition of Huston's Beat the Devil, mainly because I don't believe any of the current versions contain the complete cut of the film (or does one?). I know it's a long shot, but with the presence of names like Bogart/Jones/Morley/Lollobrigida/Lorre/Capote I think a quality, Criterion-branded release of it would have a chance of selling decently.

JHunter · #22 Post by **JHunter** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:51 pm

kblz wrote:I've always wanted to see a Criterion edition of Huston's Beat the Devil, mainly because I don't believe any of the current versions contain the complete cut of the film (or does one?). I know it's a long shot, but with the presence of names like Bogart/Jones/Morley/Lollobrigida/Lorre/Capote I think a quality, Criterion-branded release of it would have a chance of selling decently.

I agree 100%. It is one of the few public domain films that has large name recognition, but without a quality DVD (AFAIK).

unclehulot · #23 Post by **unclehulot** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:42 pm

I can't imagine why Criterion would want to issue any of the typical PD titles that "make the rounds". Already, we have Alpha ripping off the "Most Dangerous Game" disc, which surprise, some consider a "good" Alpha title. So Criterion would want to spend time and money on a title, only to have their transfer ripped off....I don't think so.

Faux Hulot · #24 Post by **Faux Hulot** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:18 pm

unclehulot wrote:So Criterion would want to spend time and money on a title, only to have their transfer ripped off....I don't think so.

Tell that to Mr. Arkadin.

The Elegant Dandy Fop · #25 Post by **The Elegant Dandy Fop** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:28 am

How many public domain films are Welles'? I would love to see Criterion handle Chimes at Midnight or The Stranger!