56-57 / BD 71 Uwasa no onna & Chikamatsu monogatari

[Tommaso]

Some of us with aging eyes really appreciate the size of the sub-titles on these releases. ;~}

Hey, you must be talking about me. As I normally watch without my lenses in, I tend to sit rather close to the screen in order to really see the details of the image so that the subs appear rather big. Shorted-sighted people like me, btw, have usually far less difficulties to read small print text...
But indeed, it would be a great treat if the size and the colour(!!) of subs could be changed by the user. Should be possible technically if they're not burnt-in..

Okay, I think I'll watch "Chikamatsu" in the next few days, and hope Mr. Rayns will not distract me from it. But I generally watch the intros after the film, anyway.

while Mizoguchi was doing his best to undermine Tanaka's directing career, Ozu was expending a considerable amount of time and effort to convince the Director's Guild to support Tanaka.

Yes, that's a curious story in any case. Did you see any of her films, btw? Would be interesting to know whether Ozu or Mizo was right in the end.

[Michael Kerpan]

Yes, that's a curious story in any case. Did you see any of her films, btw? Would be interesting to know whether Ozu or Mizo was right in the end.

Here's some comments and pictures on Tanaka's first film:

http://rozmon.blogspot.com/2007/05/watc ... -2007.html

This was written by Kinoshita -- and this is part of the films problem. Her second film used an Ozu script -- but I have yet to see this.

Imamura, who served as an assistant director for some of Tanaka's films said he was surprised to find that she really knew what she was doing (unlike other stars who took a couple of shots at directing).

[Jack Phillips]

The somewhat melodramatic ending, which didn't convince me at all . . .

Not melodramatic so much as the abandonment of dramatic pretense in order to place in a character's mouth the filmmaker's message ("How much longer must young women" etc.). Something similar happens at the end of Osaka Elegy. This seems to me an occasional failing of Mizoguchi's, as if he didn't trust his audience to pick up on his themes.

[Michael Kerpan]

Not melodramatic so much as the abandonment of dramatic pretense in order to place in a character's mouth the filmmaker's message ("How much longer must young women" etc.). Something similar happens at the end of Osaka Elegy. This seems to me an occasional failing of Mizoguchi's, as if he didn't trust his audience to pick up on his themes.

I think you are right that Mizoguchi (like Kurosawa and unlike Ozu and Naruse) often does not seem to have confidence in his audience's ability come up with the "right answer" without being explicitly told. That said, the line in Uwasa struck me as last jarring than the speech at the end of Sisters of Gion (the end of Osaka Elegy is strictly visual -- Yamada practically walks right into the camera).

[Tommaso]

Not melodramatic so much as the abandonment of dramatic pretense in order to place in a character's mouth the filmmaker's message ("How much longer must young women" etc.). Something similar happens at the end of Osaka Elegy. This seems to me an occasional failing of Mizoguchi's, as if he didn't trust his audience to pick up on his themes.

You're right about this, but actually that was not even what I had in mind. I thought about the whole end of the story:

SpoilerShow

It just seemed plainly unconvincing to me that the daughter basically takes the place of the mother to run that house after all that went on before, that she so easily seems to make the decision to reverse her 'modern' ways after she had even tried to commit suicide after having been slandered and abandoned by her lover precisely because of her mother's profession

That the 'message' is spoken out so directly in the end didn't disturb me too much. After all, as a Kurosawa fan I'm pretty used to it....

Thanks for the Tanaka link, Michael!

[Michael Kerpan]

I think the end of Uwasa is reasonably prepared for. You see the daughter's sympathy for the employees -- and her dawning of understanding that they have few (or no) options. Basically, she is taking on the job in order to try to protect them as best she can (despite still not liking the business they are all in).

[Jack Phillips]

(the end of Osaka Elegy is strictly visual -- Yamada practically walks right into the camera).

She says something as well. I can't remember what exactly--it's been probably a decade since I saw it--but if I remember correctly she has some comment on her status as a victim, something I would expect to hear from an observer rather than a character.

[Tommaso]

. Basically, she is taking on the job in order to try to protect them as best she can (despite still not liking the business they are all in).

That sounds convincing.

[Kenji]

Well that's how i see it too.

But Jack, can't "victims" see themselves as such?

And i also thought of Wyler + Naruse in watching Woman of Rumour- given some similarities with the latter director i'm not surprised Michael likes the Mizo film, and though it doesn't have the majestic grandeur + ambition of some Mizo films WOR does undermine certain criticisms levelled at him- pompous, pretentious, lacking humour (there's some slight ticklish humour in Miss Oyu too, just as in WOR Tanaka pinches the doctor for eyeing the women on stage...)

[Michael Kerpan]

WOR does undermine certain criticisms levelled at him- pompous, pretentious, lacking humour (there's some slight ticklish humour in Miss Oyu too, just as in WOR Tanaka pinches the doctor for eyeing the women on stage...)

Chikamatsu monogatari also has more humorous touches than the Mizoguchi norm -- despite its generally serious tone.

(the end of Osaka Elegy is strictly visual -- Yamada practically walks right into the camera).

She says something as well. I can't remember what exactly--it's been probably a decade since I saw it--but if I remember correctly she has some comment on her status as a victim, something I would expect to hear from an observer rather than a character.

I just watched this again. As she's standing on a bridge at night, the roly poly doctor walks past and asks her if she's okay. She says no -- and he says "you're not sick, are you?" She says "Yes. I have the sickness called 'depravity', can it be cured?" ('depravity' being the term hurled at her by her creepy brother earlier that evening). The doctor says, "I don't know, that not my area" and trundles off. Then she walks across the bridge and right into the camera.

I was surprised by the high level of comedy in this film. While it ultimately winds up somber, it hovers on the brink of farce until very late in the story. (I didn't recall this from my earlier viewings).

Trivia -- Future Mizoguchi stalwart Eitaro Shindo not only makes his Mizo debut in this film, but his film debut (the first of 319 roles listed in JMDB).

[Michael Kerpan]

As to OA, what does the heroine throw into the river at the beginning of the last scene? I can't tell on our (primitive old-fashioned) TV.

Almost everything about this is wonderful -- not least the (presumably vanished) Art Moderne Osaka of the 1930s. One of these days I'll revisit Sisters of Gion...

In addition to the influence of Sternberg and Lubitsch, I suspect that there was some degree of competition with Naruse here -- as this and SoG (and Straits of Love and Hate) really are pretty different in tone from Mizoguchi's previous work -- and much more like that of Naruse (whose Wife! Be Like A Rose! had just made such a big splash). And Ozu's films like Dragnet Girl might well also have provided some degree of influence.

[Tommaso]

Watched "Chikamatsu" last night and am thankful to have listened to your warnings about the Rayns interview, so I only played it AFTER the film. Hell, what is this guy talking about?? Did he really see the same film that completely floored me 15 minutes before? Although there's no reason to suspect that his historical information about Mizoguchi not having been overly interested in doing the film is wrong, it should be obvious that he nevertheless managed to make the film completely convincing in almost every conceivable aspect, be it directing, acting and, most important, emotional involvement. Of all the Mizo films I've seen yet, apart from "Oharu", "Chikamatsu" was the one that I found most immediately engaging, also perhaps the most 'lyrical' and effortlessly flowing. Reading the two literary versions as printed in the booklet before I watched the film, I thought it would be a tricky task to motivate the coming together of the two lovers in a modern-day film, and I was surprised how Mizoguchi's actors managed to convey this so easily and convincingly.
Quite a wonderful film, and I might even rate it higher than "Sansho", which I find much more constructed and intellectualized, and demanding much more of a suspension of disbelief on the part of the viewer. I feel that Mizoguchi with "Chikamatsu" was much more on home territory than with "Sansho" (which in a way struck me as being an all too overt attempt at catering to the Western Kurosawa audience in places). In this respect, perhaps, no wonder that "Chikamatsu" didn't win a price in Cannes, as Mr. Rayns gleefully tells us after dismissing the film for 10 minutes. But it may have been for totally different reasons than Rayns thinks.

[Michael Kerpan]

Watched "Chikamatsu" last night and am thankful to have listened to your warnings about the Rayns interview, so I only played it AFTER the film. Hell, what is this guy talking about?? Did he really see the same film that completely floored me 15 minutes before?

I can't understand this either. Rayns must have watched the film with his (mind's and/or heart's) eye closed.

Although there's no reason to suspect that his historical information about Mizoguchi not having been overly interested in doing the film is wrong, it should be obvious that he nevertheless managed to make the film completely convincing in almost every conceivable aspect, be it directing, acting and, most important, emotional involvement. Of all the Mizo films I've seen yet, apart from "Oharu", "Chikamatsu" was the one that I found most immediately engaging, also perhaps the most 'lyrical' and effortlessly flowing.

My reaction too -- though one of my (college student) children completely rejected this because he felt the plot was totally unbelievable. Can't win them all. ;~{

I was surprised how Mizoguchi's actors managed to convey this so easily and convincingly.

People often criticize Hasegawa in this -- and I think they are just plain wrong. It made perfect sense to have the character played as a prim and fussy middle-aged bachelor. Ironically, this might be a bit of male wish-fulfillment -- perhaps dying with Kyoko Kagawa is preferable to life as a perpetual salaryman.

Quite a wonderful film, and I might even rate it higher than "Sansho", which I find much more constructed and intellectualized, and demanding much more of a suspension of disbelief on the part of the viewer. I feel that Mizoguchi with "Chikamatsu" was much more on home territory than with "Sansho" (which in a way struck me as being an all too overt attempt at catering to the Western Kurosawa audience in places). In this respect, perhaps, no wonder that "Chikamatsu" didn't win a price in Cannes, as Mr. Rayns gleefully tells us after dismissing the film for 10 minutes. But it may have been for totally different reasons than Rayns thinks.

I will refrain from criticism of Sansho here. But even if I liked this more than I do, I'm pretty sure I'd still like Chikanatsu monogatari even more. The tartness of Chikamatsu and Saikaku suits me far more than the earnestness of Mori. To be fair to Mizoguchi in Sansho, the tone of the work follows the original (which did not try to craft an orientalist work pleasing to Westerners, but rather to naturalize European romanticism in a Japanese setting).

[Tommaso]

though one of my (college student) children completely rejected this because he felt the plot was totally unbelievable.

Yes, it is 'unbelievable', but in the same sense that some Shakespeare plots are. I quite liked the fact that Chikamatsu, the author, has been hailed as a Japanese Shakespeare (or at least I wasn't overly surprised when I read the bits of the original play). Although the way this and the other extract were printed as prose in the booklet perhaps even made me think more of something out of Boccaccio, at least up until that moment in the plot.

. It made perfect sense to have the character played as a prim and fussy middle-aged bachelor.

So he appeared in the original stories to me, too. If he had been a 'strong' hero (or even only an attractive young man), his self-denial that apparently had gone on for a long time would have been far more unconvincing.

Ironically, this might be a bit of male wish-fulfillment -- perhaps dying with Kyoko Kagawa is preferable to life as a perpetual salaryman.

Yes, but it also works the other way round. Osun had formerly embraced or accepted her role in the hierarchical system, and it's perhaps only because the Hasegawa character is so 'unsure' of himself that she can believe in his honesty. He's every way the opposite of her husband, who completely disregards her feelings, and Otama's, too.

I take your points on "Sansho", and I didn't intend to criticize that film very much. But seeing more and more Mizoguchi films emerge on dvd now, I increasingly wonder why that film has such a big standing in the west (together with "Ugetsu", which I think I like better, though I really have to watch it again when the MoC disc comes out to be sure about this) compared to these other very fine films that are far less known.

[Michael Kerpan]

I take your points on "Sansho", and I didn't intend to criticize that film very much. But seeing more and more Mizoguchi films emerge on dvd now, I increasingly wonder why that film has such a big standing in the west (together with "Ugetsu", which I think I like better, though I really have to watch it again when the MoC disc comes out to be sure about this) compared to these other very fine films that are far less known.

I think I would like Sansho and Ugetsu (a little bit) more if these had not been given such undue prominence, while other remarkable Mizoguchi films were virtually ignored.

Speaking of Sansho himself -- and the arrogant master printer of CM -- every time I look at Eitaro Shindo (and his nose), I am reminded of W.C. Fields. But the similarities go beyond the nose, there is something in his acting style that reminds me of Fields as well. ;~}

[Rowan]

I completely agree with everything that has been said in the above posts. Saw it myself a couple of nights ago - what a beautiful, engrossing movie! It feels so light on its feet; so neat in its treatment of tragedy as to seem like a fulfilment. There’s a great balance between distance and pathos too, and the few, almost involuntary, moments of intimacy between the lovers are very moving. The Lake Biwa scene in particular is as breathtaking as any I’ve seen in late Mizoguchi; the way the boat, after bobbing and swaying with the characters confessions, finally resolves to accent their embrace in a subtle glide away from the camera and into the mist; the combination of this movement with Hasegawa’s performance here is one of those truly stunning moments of eloquent, sublime cinema. Also I love the brief (a few seconds) serene shot of the two sleeping in the morning light before being seized and separated..

It made perfect sense to have the character played as a prim and fussy middle-aged bachelor.

Yes, you're right. I loved the charcterisation of Mohei. And, maybe it's just me, but I thought both the leads had a remarkable air of covert sexuality about them (something that I don't tend to expect in Mizoguchi).

As for Rayns comments (don’t want to make him a whipping-boy - I generally find him very informative, better than most in fact!), I have to join in disagreeing with his repeated assertion that Chikamatsu bears signs of ‘indifference’. It is a very ‘efficient’ movie, and certainly lacks the mystical overtones of Ugetsu or Sansho, but, for me, is just as enveloping. Sansho I actually found a bit heavy-going at first, but the primal power of its final sequence totally knocked me sick - so I need to rewatch soon!

Of all the Mizo films I've seen yet, apart from "Oharu", "Chikamatsu" was the one that I found most immediately engaging, also perhaps the most 'lyrical' and effortlessly flowing.

This is exactly how I feel.

[Sloper]

I tried hard to be floored by Chikamatsu, but somehow it left me just as cold as Oharu did, and for the same reason. Although, scene by scene, it’s a beautiful film, and although the actors (all of them, but especially Hasegawa) give wonderfully sensitive performances, the story itself is simply depressing. By this I don’t just mean that it’s downbeat – all my favourite films are downbeat – but that the sense of inescapable doom that hangs over the characters from the start robs the plot of any real momentum. It reminded me of William Wyler’s ‘Carrie’, which is as well made and acted a film as you could wish for, but whose plot is so single-mindedly bent on a tragic conclusion that watching it becomes an exercise in masochism; the characters are like puppets, and their fates seem contrived. I felt the same way about Quai des Brumes, despite being a huge fan of Le Jour se Leve… Perhaps there’s something muted – or fans might say restrained – about these films which prevent them from being emotionally involving. I much prefer Sansho or Gion Bayashi – or indeed the Lady of Musashino, or 47 Ronin, or Tales of the Taira Clan – perhaps because those films are more histrionic and sentimental, and therefore more accessible.

That said, the whole chase sequence towards the end was brilliantly handled, especially the scene on Lake Biwa. And the ending was genuinely moving.

Now, I like Tony Rayns, and his ‘introduction’ (which I watched after the film) was quite informative, but having been underwhelmed by the film I found his negative attitude – which pretty much chimed with my own – particularly annoying. It hardly seems fair to object to his (or my) low opinion of Chikamatsu, but he should have made at least some effort to suggest why the film is held in such high esteem. As a professional scholar, that’s kind of his job, isn’t it? And when I watch an extra feature like this, or listen to a commentary, I expect to have my appreciation of a film’s qualities enhanced – not to have my lack of enthusiasm for it reinforced!

[Tommaso]

the story itself is simply depressing. By this I don’t just mean that it’s downbeat – all my favourite films are downbeat – but that the sense of inescapable doom that hangs over the characters from the start robs the plot of any real momentum.

Well, you could basically say the same thing about a lot of films generally held in very high esteem here. Dreyer's "Day of Wrath" immediately comes to mind, Tarkovsky's "Sacrifice", lots of Bergman and Kurosawa ("Ran", "Kagemusha") as well. In all these films, it's precisely the 'doom' that makes the story engaging for me, the humanity displayed or even only brought out in the characters because they are fighting that inescapable fate.
Be that as it may, I would disagree anyway if you say the story of "Chikamatsu" is "simply depressing". Once they are on their flight, the coming together of the lovers balances very nicely the feeling of impending fate, and the woman who says in the very end that the lovers look joyful on their way to execution pretty much hits the point. They actually do. There's a very strong sense of a spiritual overcoming of death here. I found the film almost uplifting in this respect. Perhaps that's why I like it so much.

I much prefer Sansho or Gion Bayashi – or indeed the Lady of Musashino, or 47 Ronin, or Tales of the Taira Clan – perhaps because those films are more histrionic and sentimental, and therefore more accessible.

Curiously, one of the online reviews of the disc called "Chikamatsu" a 'soap opera', and indeed I find this film in a certain way more 'sentimental' than the other films you mention. Though again I'm not sure that sentimental is the right word.

And yes, the lake Biwa sequence is one of the most beautiful I've yet seen from Mizoguchi. Also the sequence when Mohei tries to run away from Osun, a wonderful shot of that mountain slope.

[Michael Kerpan]

Whether the ending is "downbeat" or uplifting (or triumphant and joyous) is a matter of perspective. I go with Tommaso on this point. To me this is a story of two people ultimately _finding_ happiness -- despite all their adversity. The Korean film Failan seems to present a similar situation -- it can be viewed as (cynically) tragic or happy, depending on one's viewpoint (again, I incline to the latter view).

I may be biased -- I've been an opera fan for many many decades -- and this sort of "downbeat" story is one that one gets used to early on. ;~}

I don't _object_ to people not loving CM (though it saddens me a little). But Rayns dismissal of the film outright -- as if there was no case whatsoever to be made in its favor -- bothered me a lot.

[Sloper]

you could basically say the same thing about a lot of films generally held in very high esteem here. Dreyer's "Day of Wrath" immediately comes to mind, Tarkovsky's "Sacrifice", lots of Bergman and Kurosawa ("Ran", "Kagemusha") as well. In all these films, it's precisely the 'doom' that makes the story engaging for me, the humanity displayed or even only brought out in the characters because they are fighting that inescapable fate.

Day of Wrath, Ran, and many other soul-crushing films number among my favourites - indeed, I too tend to think of the 'doom-laden' aspect of these films as being the thing I love most about them. Which is why I was so puzzled by the boredom I felt while watching Chikamatsu. I only started to enjoy it during the Lake Biwa scene, and was fairly engaged for the rest of the film - the scene where Mohei and Osan are torn from each other was as good as the equivalent scene near the beginning of Sansho, and there is definitely something uplifting, as well as tragic, about the ending...

Curiously, one of the online reviews of the disc called "Chikamatsu" a 'soap opera', and indeed I find this film in a certain way more 'sentimental' than the other films you mention. Though again I'm not sure that sentimental is the right word.

I suppose what I meant by saying Chikamatsu isn't 'sentimental' enough is that it doesn't establish the relationship between Mohei and Osan in sufficient depth or detail to make me really care about them. I only cared insofar as the sensitive performances made me care - come to think of it, Wyler's 'Carrie' suffers from the same problem, that is, that the 'illicit' relationship isn't fleshed out enough. The characters seem to operate more as symbols, or chess pieces, than as real human beings. Whereas, for instance, Celia Johnson and Trevor Howard in Brief Encounter not only give great performances, but are also working from a script which gives them the space in which to develop a rapport. I get the feeling this is something that some directors can do and others can't - and I have yet to see a Mizoguchi film with a convincing romantic relationship in it. (And no I don't think the one in Musashino counts, though I love the film.)

Day of Wrath doesn't depend on our caring all that much whether Anne and Martin make their relationship work, and indeed the moment when Martin betrays her at the end comes as no great surprise - it's a very satisfying resolution of the tragedy. Their relationship was about as well described as that of Mohei and Osan, but the romantic ending to Mizoguchi's film has not been built up to enough to make it a truly satisfying payoff.

As for Ran, that to me is a film that, like Die Nibelungen, works on the epic scale, not the personal, and I feel almost nothing for any of the characters - Chikamatsu is not an epic, but a melodrama which succeeds or fails according to whether you feel for the characters, and for some reason I didn't.

Plus I was in a bad mood when I watched it. I'll probably like it better next time.

[Michael Kerpan]

Plus I was in a bad mood when I watched it. I'll probably like it better next time.

That never helps.

I actually do care for (some of) the characters in Wagner's Ring of the Nibelungen....

In a sense, one is not supposed to care a great deal about the two central characters early on, they only begin to come alive as they get nearer and nearer to death. The character _I_ actually care about most for the first third or so of the film is poor O-Tama.

[Tommaso]

I suppose what I meant by saying Chikamatsu isn't 'sentimental' enough is that it doesn't establish the relationship between Mohei and Osan in sufficient depth or detail to make me really care about them.

I think (but am not sure about it) that this also depends a little bit on the givens of Japanese culture and art. While I agree that "Brief Encounter" goes into greater depth (I haven't seen the Wyler film, unfortunately), I found "Chikamatsu" quite daring for a Japanese film of the time (this is not yet Oshima's or Shinoda's time). Think of the scene after Mohei tries to leave Osan and hides in the woods, but then realises he cannot go without her: the way he caresses her feet and legs I suppose would have carried for a Japanese sensibility a very strong indication (and detail) of the depth of their love. Also the moment on the lake when Mohei confesses his love and Osun says that now everything has changed. Consider the usual behaviour of people from that class in that time: I thought that was pretty strong stuff, and very much personalized.

As for Ran, that to me is a film that, like Die Nibelungen, works on the epic scale, not the personal, and I feel almost nothing for any of the characters

Agreed for "Nibelungen" in the least, though curiously the epic distance of "Ran" did never prevent me from caring what happened to Hidetora or Lady Sue there.

I actually do care for (some of) the characters in Wagner's Ring of the Nibelungen....

Though I think Sloper thought of the Lang film and not of Wagner, your mentioning that you're used to the 'doom' because of your love for opera made me think of "Tristan und Isolde" instead. A quite similar unrelentless love affair with death enthusiastically welcomed in the end.

The character _I_ actually care about most for the first third or so of the film is poor O-Tama.

I fully agree. In the second half, I care about what happens to Mohei's father in a similar way. Both are great instances of Mizo's gift for characterization, by the way, for his care for detail. At least this should have been pointed out by Rayns.

[Michael Kerpan]

Though I think Sloper thought of the Lang film and not of Wagner, your mentioning that you're used to the 'doom' because of your love for opera made me think of "Tristan und Isolde" instead. A quite similar unrelentless love affair with death enthusiastically welcomed in the end.

I suspected he was referring to Lang -- which is why I specified Wagner. ;~}

I think you are correct and Tristan und Isolde. Interestingly, neither character is very "warm and cuddly" through much of the first act. One really begins to care about them only once they become "doomed".

The character _I_ actually care about most for the first third or so of the film is poor O-Tama.

I fully agree. In the second half, I care about what happens to Mohei's father in a similar way. Both are great instances of Mizo's gift for characterization, by the way, for his care for detail. At least this should have been pointed out by Rayns.

Yes. The father was a delight. His behavior, in the end, was very moving.

[Sloper]

Michael, I agree about the father and Otama being more sympathetic in some ways - the latter especially. Perhaps because she has less of an opportunity to be heroic, she sort of comes across as more tragic. Part of my problem with the film was a (somewhat simple-minded) confusion over who the heroine was going to be; that is, who Mohei was going to have a doomed affair with. Keeping the audience on their toes during the first act or two seems to be a favourite device of Mizoguchi's - it's one of the things that makes 47 Ronin such an absorbing film - but perhaps if you're tired it's just annoying.

And Tommaso, thinking back to some of the scenes you mentioned, especially the leg-stroking bit, I realise they were pretty surprising. Sounds like a few sweeping remarks about the cultural context in Rayns' introduction might have helped here...

By the way, an awful lot of this 'evidence' about Mizoguchi's lack of engagement in various projects seems to come from Yoda's memoirs - is he really a very reliable source? And is it really that unusual for an artist, especially one who's been around for a while, to bitch about the projects he's working on? There's no simple correlation between an artist's commitment to his work and the way he talks about it with other people.

[Franky]

Wow, loads of good comments here on both films =D>

The film I was most reminded of while watching Chikamatsu Monogatari was Double Suicide by Shinoda. Which kind of makes sense because they're both Chikamatsu stories. But somehow I was a less annoyed with the melodramatic acting in Chikamatsu than in Double Suicide. Could this simply have to do with the fact that Mizoguchi was more experienced with melodrama and Chikamatsu plays?
Don't get me wrong, I did really like Double Suicide on the other hand, but maybe Shinoda exaggerated on purpose because it was a Chikamatsu play?