24 / BD 78 Faust

Discuss DVDs and Blu-rays released by Eureka/Masters of Cinema and the films on them. If it's got a spine number, it's in here.
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Darth Lavender
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:24 pm

#126 Post by Darth Lavender » Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:24 pm

I kind of see your point about looking beyond the transfer, to the film itself, and in regard to certain flaws I do think that's easy to do.
But the interlacing on Faust was, to me, a flaw that I found it impossible to look past (I'm talking about my earlier, 'normal sharpness' viewings here.) If I had to guess why, I'd guess perhaps the fact that it affects specific objects, a jagged book in an otherwise flawless image of Faust's study, etc. and the biggest reason this is problematic for me is the persistance of each jaggy. Some of them are brief (Mephisto's sword momentarily hitting the right angle to be reduced to jagginess,) but silent-cinema's static camera means that most of those jaggies remain on screen for quite some time, and that's were they get really distracting.

Perhaps the ability to ignore jaggies simply requires a zen-like mental discipline which I have to attain :lol:
HerrSchreck wrote:By mentioning films you may never have heard of, they are leading you to the well. Take a sip-- and dive in if you like the taste! Explore, man.
Actually, that's kind of the reason I was suggesting some kind of a glossary. The most obvious problem I encountered was when the commentators rattled off the names of a few interesting sounding foreign films which are going to be difficult for me to check up on simply because I haven't even the remotest idea how to spell them.

For the record, I do have a vague idea of what 'chiaroscuro' means (something like; the use of "light and shadow," right?) and just included that term as an example.

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skuhn8
wax on; wax off
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:46 pm
Location: Chico, CA

#127 Post by skuhn8 » Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:20 pm

It would be great if the CC and MOC adopted the BFI practice of subtitling their commentaries. Of course, that adds to the expense.

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Matango
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:19 am
Location: Hong Kong

#128 Post by Matango » Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:42 am

This is currently 54% off at Amazon UK...only a tenner now

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blindside8zao
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:31 pm
Location: Greensboro, NC

#129 Post by blindside8zao » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:17 pm

I started my MOC collection with this, Sunrise, and Spiones. I am really glad I stopped waiting for a Murnau boxed set and went ahead and bought this. It really is a beauty. The shots of Mephistopheles at his summoning are more eerie than a great deal of imagery of similar types done previously.
Also, the clean up that's been done on this is amazing. I'm looking forward to purchasing the other Murnau's as they are released.

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Rsdio
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 11:42 am
Location: UK

#130 Post by Rsdio » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:22 pm

Matango wrote:This is currently 54% off at Amazon UK...only a tenner now
Or get it for £9.99 delivered from Benson's World (along with most of the other MoC releases).

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cgray
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:21 pm
Location: Erie, CO

#131 Post by cgray » Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:14 pm

Rsdio wrote:Or get it for £9.99 delivered from Benson's World (along with most of the other MoC releases).
Shipping to the US at Benson's World is 1GBP per disc, correct?

From their site:
Shipping Rates
Delivery within the UK and for BFPO customers is FREE.
Delivery to Europe is GBP 1.00 per disc or GBP 1.75 per VHS Tape.
Delivery to the rest of the world is now back to GBP 1.00 per disc.

akaten

#132 Post by akaten » Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:59 pm

Finally got around to watching this, my first FW Murnau film and this will sound like I'm gushing excessively but I was absolutely blown away by the film. The precision of the camerawork, use of lighting, be it stage, natural (the swinging lamp example that Gregory refers to earlier in this thread). or at its both combining both in a scene and sheer inventiveness on display throughout.

The introduction of Mephisto is without a doubt one of the incredible (not to mention terrifying) pieces of pure cinema I have ever seen. Those eyes, a simple gesture of raising his hat, portray real malice and foreboding in such a succinct way, no single frame goes to waste, utterly spellbinding stuff.

Headed straight for the commentary, excellent for the most part but I'm curious as to the assertions about Heimat, the homeland Faust desires (excellent use of overlay effects, puts CGI to shame) as within the film in a wholly satisfying manner, but I was too busy to really concern myself with any narrative inconstancies during my first viewing.

I can see myself returning to this film in the next few days once I calm down to consider the film more closely and then onto Tartuffe, Sunrise, ahead of Nosferatu and Tabu later in the month.

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markhax
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:42 pm
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#133 Post by markhax » Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:54 pm

It is not widely known, but the French director Eric Rohmer wrote a wonderful book on Murnau's Faust. The original French version can be had for a song at ABEbooks.com. There is also a German translation, but, alas, none in English.

The film is, in Rohmer's phrase, "A visual opera." It is like a sequence of paintings related to a text, but should be experienced visually as one does painting. Rohmer writes that no director has ever maintained such control over each individual image as did Murnau in Faust. He has analyses of the film frame by frame, and he talks at length about Murnaus's pictorial sources (16th and 17th century painting), whom he never copies slavishly but assimilates. His special interest, however, is Murnau's treatment of space.

monks19
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:04 pm

#134 Post by monks19 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:26 pm

hi, just a silly question here from a newcomer. does anybody knows if eureka video (MoC) will re-realease this film on dvd with everything corrected and add to it the documentary "los 5 faust de F. W. Murnau" and the documentary "Die sprache der schatten: Friedrich Wilhelm Murnau und seine Filme - Das Meisterstrük: Faust". Because honestly i think this edition is highly incomplete without these two indispensable documentaries.

the "Los 5 faust de F. W. Murnau" is already available on the spanish edition (divisa red) and "Die sprache der schatten: Friedrich Wilhelm Murnau und seine Filme - Das Meisterstrük: Faust" (languege osf shadows...) is only avalaible on the french dvd (released by mk2 in france).

anybody got an idea ?

peerpee
not perpee
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:41 pm

#135 Post by peerpee » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:40 pm

Hiya. We chose not to include those two documentaries for various technical reasons -- and instead we spent a lot of time recording an exclusive commentary track with David Ehrenstein and Bill Krohn, shooting a 20-minute video interview with Tony Rayns, making a 20-minute video comparison by R. Dixon Smith, and putting together a 28-page booklet. All of which covered the same ground of the Spanish and German documentaries and added much more. So we'd disagree that this edition is "highly incomplete" without these two documentaries.

monks19
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:04 pm

#136 Post by monks19 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:13 pm

then what about the fact that the other murnau's films on dvd (MoC) have all the Luciano Berriatúa documentaries, which are already very hard to find but also are some of the best documentation about murnau and his work. honestly, it's a losing a good oppotunity for the advantage of both the sellers and the buyers.

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markhax
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:42 pm
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#137 Post by markhax » Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:33 pm

monks19 wrote:then what about the fact that the other murnau's films on dvd (MoC) have all the Luciano Berriatúa documentaries, which are already very hard to find but also are some of the best documentation about murnau and his work. honestly, it's a losing a good oppotunity for the advantage of both the sellers and the buyers.
And he is THE authority on Murnau. His two-volume book on Murnau in Spanish is by far the most important and substantial thing ever published on him.

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Darth Lavender
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:24 pm

#138 Post by Darth Lavender » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:49 pm

monks19 wrote:and "Die sprache der schatten: Friedrich Wilhelm Murnau und seine Filme - Das Meisterstrük: Faust" (languege osf shadows...) is only avalaible on the french dvd (released by mk2 in france).
Haven't heard of this one. How's the transfer?
Is it the restored version? Original intertitles? and most importantly; does it have those atrocious jaggies? I so desperately need a quality version of this movie.

EDIT: Just checked Amazon fr, and it looks the MK2 came out only a few months ago. So, it's probably the restored version, at least. Not sure about jaggies.

Can anyone offer some more information on this?

monks19
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:04 pm

#139 Post by monks19 » Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:00 am

i got some infos here, but it's all in french. about the jaggies, it's not mentionned, but it doesn't look to be present on this disk. the only way to know is get it and watch it. but since the only way for me to buy dvds from europe is by ebay and my only payment method is by sending cashier's cheques, i won't be able to get it soon. i was able to buy the MoC one to weeks ag only, so...

by the way, on that matter, can anybody tell me please where i can get european dvds on the internet but without the use of credit card or paypal (i don't trust paypal and i can't afford a credit card since i'm just a student and my salary isn't big enough to have one from my bank). so any suggestion about that ?

on the other matter, i hope someone can answer us, except if i can get my hand on it.

Ledos
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:05 am

#140 Post by Ledos » Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:20 am

Darth Lavender wrote:Is it the restored version? Original intertitles? and most importantly; does it have those atrocious jaggies? I so desperately need a quality version of this movie.
You could also just get the Divisa Red edition. It's the restored version with original intertitles, and I don't remember seeing any jaggies on it. It's also slightly sharper than the Eureka/MoC version (despite DVDBeaver declaring MoC the winner in Image quality - see comparison). It does not have subtitles however, but offers optional Spanish intertitles as an alternative.

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Darth Lavender
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:24 pm

#141 Post by Darth Lavender » Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:12 am

Did a little reading on this and found one detail that suggests it might be the same transfer... The running time is identical to the MoC (if MK2 is native PAL and MoC is sourced from NTSC, the MK2 should be slightly shorter)
However, this is a silent movie, so it may have a non-standard frame-rate, explaining the identical times.
Although, after a quick search, I found some suggestions that by 1926 24fps had already become a pretty standard projection speed.

Thanks for the links. I don't read french, but I'll try examining the screencaps closely to see if there's any sign of jaggies.

chollyp
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:57 pm

#142 Post by chollyp » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:17 am

The difference in PAL vs. NTSC video frame rates doesn't necessarily mean different running times provided that the relative film frame rate is maintained.

Examining the MoC version frame by frame, the film speed is 20fps, changed to a 25fps video frame rate by repeating 1 frame in each sequence of 4 (sort of a digital "stretch printing"). This also may result in a slight jerkiness to the motion although honestly I really haven't noticed it. I appreciate them doing this since it leaves the video progressive, leaving no combing (interlacing) or ghosting artifacts.

Nick said that the master used was a PAL digibeta with a 2:3 pulldown applied, which MoC removed to make the disc progressive. 20fps film with 2:3 pulldown would definitely yield a 25fps video rate so the PAL source would've also "contained" a 20fps film rate.

Also, according to Nick, the PAL digibeta was sourced from an NTSC telecine and was "very well converted to PAL". 20fps film works very nicely with NTSC via a 3:3 pulldown process. It would be very easy to remove the 3:3 and apply a 2:3 for conversion to PAL while maintaining the film rate of 20fps. Although this is an inference, it is a reasonable one.

So, from NTSC interlaced (whereabouts unknown) --> PAL interlaced (Murnau Stiftung's master) --> PAL progressive (MoC's conversion), the film speed 20fps was maintained.

That being said, with the running times the same, the MK2 are most likely using the same Murnau Stiftung's interlaced PAL master as the source unless MS has created a new transfer. It will be interesting to see if the jaggies appear there as well.

monks19
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:04 pm

Re: 24 Faust

#143 Post by monks19 » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:14 pm

hi, any news about the MoC release ? especially since the new kino annoncement, will MoC do a new release soon or in blu-ray that will include other bonuses like the german documentary, the screentest and all ?

thanks to answer

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Florinaldo
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:38 pm
Location: Canada

Re: 24 Faust

#144 Post by Florinaldo » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:41 pm

I have finished watching both versions of the film on this fine two discs edition and it certainly was a fascinating experience.

This DVD (and others of films for which there exists similarly two versions shot in the same way) should be mandatory viewing in film classes as a demonstration of how the apparently banal choices a director (or his cinematrographer) makes can make a crucial difference in the results. I have heard people express the opinion that as long as you have a good-looking set or a beautiful landscape, anybody can just plunk down a camera just about anywhere and take an efficient or dramatic shot. According to this view, a director makes little difference.

In the case of Faust, we can see first hand how a slight displacement of just a few degrees can make for a a different and slightly less efficient composition, with a noticeable lessening of the dramatic effect. Because the shots in the domestic version are generally better composed and more successful than in the export one, we can point to them as proof that each director's aesthetic intelligence and sensibility will direct him to specific choices with different results and that each decision contributes to a specific dramatic and visual unity of the film, in different ways between those two versions, sometimes subtly and at others in a very apparent manner.

Which does not mean that everything is perfect in the domestic version; the shot of the two lovers rocketing up to heaven in a globe of light is rather laughable and had thankfully remained unseen all these years.

One final thought: it appears that all these years we have appreciated this film based on an "sub-optimal" (but still excellent) version. This would mean that Eric Rohmer wrote his famous essay on the film based on the same. Does this make his work and insights less valuable in any way? Especially since his subject was specifically the organization of space in this Murnau movie? Or are the two versions close enough that his analysis still holds?

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TMDaines
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:01 pm
Location: Stretford, Manchester

Re: 24 Faust

#145 Post by TMDaines » Wed May 25, 2011 2:00 pm

Just seen a picture of Faust on Twitter with a lovely red spine. Looks quite swish. When was this cover changed?

peerpee
not perpee
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:41 pm

Re: 24 Faust

#146 Post by peerpee » Wed May 25, 2011 2:05 pm

Repressed a couple of months ago. Spine changed to reflect it.

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TMDaines
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:01 pm
Location: Stretford, Manchester

Re: 24 Faust

#147 Post by TMDaines » Wed May 25, 2011 4:32 pm

peerpee wrote:Repressed a couple of months ago. Spine changed to reflect it.
Have any of the other early black spine releases got this treatment?

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swo17
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
Location: SLC, UT

Re: 24 Faust

#148 Post by swo17 » Wed May 25, 2011 4:36 pm

TMDaines wrote:Just seen a picture of Faust on Twitter with a lovely red spine. Looks quite swish. When was this cover changed?
Can you share this picture?

peerpee
not perpee
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:41 pm

Re: 24 Faust

#149 Post by peerpee » Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 pm

TMDaines wrote:
peerpee wrote:Repressed a couple of months ago. Spine changed to reflect it.
Have any of the other early black spine releases got this treatment?

Yes - quite a few. SPIONE, KWAIDAN, ONIBABA, KURONEKO, off the top of my head. Not sure whether I did SHOESHINE also...

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reno dakota
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:30 am

Re: 24 Faust

#150 Post by reno dakota » Wed May 25, 2011 5:25 pm

swo17 wrote:
TMDaines wrote:Just seen a picture of Faust on Twitter with a lovely red spine. Looks quite swish. When was this cover changed?
Can you share this picture?
Image

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