New Wave Films (UK)

[RossyG]

Just for the record, I'd have bought it on Blu-ray too.

[peerpee]

I would buy 3 x HORS SATAN Blu-rays for myself and gifts.

[newwavefilms]

This makes about 20/30 units of Hors Satan blu so far promised from here. We will do another calculation for its financial viability, but don't hold your breath too long. Incidentally, just looked at check disc of DVD today and looks pretty good.

[zedz]

I can certainly understand New Wave Films' nervousness about committing to BluRay on some titles, but if it helps, I'd pick up the Dumont on Blu too. Basically, I'll never opt for DVD if there's a Blu option available.

[EddieLarkin]

And for people like me going in to a purchase completely blind, a Blu-ray always seems like a better investment. Hors Satan is not a film that I have any familiarity with, other than it being a Bruno Dumont title, and on that basis it goes on my "list". But a Blu-ray version would be placed about ten times higher on said list.

[John Edmond]

If it helps, I'd buy two copies of Hors Satan on blu...but I'd be hoping it had dropped in price by the time I bought the second copy in November for a friend's birthday.

[zeroism]

And for people like me going in to a purchase completely blind, a Blu-ray always seems like a better investment. Hors Satan is not a film that I have any familiarity with, other than it being a Bruno Dumont title, and on that basis it goes on my "list". But a Blu-ray version would be placed about ten times higher on said list.

My thoughts exactly. If it were a Blu-ray, I'd most likely pre-order it or buy it ASAP after release. As it is, I probably won't pick it up until I've got a lot of other stuff marked off my list.

[AidanKing]

I'll be buying Hors Satan on DVD, not because I prefer DVD but simply because I don't have a BluRay player.

I buy most DVDs released by New Wave because I think UK film culture would be immeasurably the poorer without their presence: their catalogue seems to be the best of any UK distributor.

They seem to have less of a backlog at the moment. As fair as I'm aware, we're waiting for cinema releases of the latest Rivette and Kiarostami and Loznitza's In the Fog. Does anyone know if they picked up anything at Venice?

Both acquisitions from Berlin look pretty good too. Obviously, anything from Panahi is automatically highly significant due to his circumstances, but the Tanovic got a good write up in the Berlin report in the latest Sight and Sound.

I hope New Wave are able to continue with their excellent programme of releases for as long as possible.

[RossyG]

So how long have you been in media PR, Aidan?

The UK BD market seems oddly schizophrenic. Some labels release few if any BD's as they can't make it work financially, whilst the likes of Artificial Eye, BFI and MoC keep ploughing 'em out every month.

Artificial Eye are releasing three in April, three in May and five in June.

I know there are probably invisible economic factors, like who owns which company etc, but when I hear that Soda or New Wave have bagged the rights to an interesting film my initial reaction is "Bah! Wish AE had got that, then there'd probably be a Blu-ray."

And didn't Peerpee say that had MoC got Hors Satan they'd have released it on BD two years ago? That smarts a bit!

[AidanKing]

So how long have you been in media PR, Aiden?

Only since today, although I'm not paid unfortunately.

I accept that New Wave have delayed over some releases, but I think that's due to a commitment to release films in cinemas first. I think there's been some debate here over whether that's sensible in this day and age, but personally I still think it's a good idea.

I genuinely think that the people at New Wave did a fantastic job when they ran Artificial Eye and have continued to do so since they started New Wave. MoC may have released the Dumont films if New Wave hadn't picked them up, but I wonder whether films like Tabu, Three Monkeys, Uncle Boonmee, 24 City, Tulpan, Silence of Lorna and Anatolia would have got a release in the UK without New Wave. And I don't think these are minor films, either: in my opinion, they're hugely significant films by great directors at the forefront of world cinema.

Sorry if I do sound like a press officer, but credit where it's due, and I think New Wave deserve credit.

Mind you, I still wish they'd release Kaos as a companion to Caesar Must Die, but I've gone on about that enough and I'm not sure that anyone else is interested.

[MichaelB]

I know there are probably invisible economic factors, like who owns which company etc, but when I hear that Soda or New Wave have bagged the rights to an interesting film my initial reaction is "Bah! Wish AE had got that, then there'd probably be a Blu-ray."

As their blockbuster-free catalogues rather give away, Soda, New Wave and Second Run are tiny companies run on shoestring budgets, while Artificial Eye, the BFI and MoC are backed by much larger concerns (namely the Curzon group, the wider BFI and Eureka Entertainment). So they can afford to take risks in a way that the first three can't - and the BFI also has the advantage of its archival remit, which is crucial to strands like the Flipside. (Given the amount of work involved in tracking down prints and supporting scholarly research, I doubt very much the latter would be economically justifiable if run purely as a Blu-ray distribution exercise).

[RossyG]

So this begs the question, if New Wave and Eureka were both interested in Hors Satan, but only the latter intend it for Blu-ray, wouldn't it have been better if the former had just stepped aside and let them get on with it?

It's not like it was ever going to be a big theatrical hit for them.

[AidanKing]

As their blockbuster-free catalogues rather give away, Soda, New Wave and Second Run are tiny companies run on shoestring budgets, while Artificial Eye, the BFI and MoC are backed by much larger concerns (namely the Curzon group, the wider BFI and Eureka Entertainment). So they can afford to take risks in a way that the first three can't

Although you could argue that, even though they can't really afford to take risks, absolutely everything Second Run releases is a risk and virtually everything New Wave releases is a risk too. In all honesty, I can't think of anything released by either of them that would be seen as a sure-fire money spinner. That's one reason why I try to support both companies as much as I can.

[AidanKing]

So this begs the question, if New Wave and Eureka were both interested in Hors Satan, but only the latter intend it for Blu-ray, wouldn't it have been better if the former had just stepped aside and let them get on with it?

It's not like it was ever going to be a big theatrical hit for them.

I think New Wave will have picked the Dumonts up primarily for cinema release (and the London Film Festival showing) with the subsequent disc releases being important but secondary to the idea of cinema viewing. Obviously, it can be argued that that's old fashioned and that it would have been better to have had MoC bypass cinemas altogether and release the Dumonts straight to disc, but that doesn't seem to be the way New Wave intends to operate.

[AidanKing]

Sorry for going on, and for being more cynical this time, but I would guess that the next Dumont will have been picked up by Artificial Eye. I doubt if AE would want New Wave to get a Dumont that looks as if it has a chance of making money. I think it'll be a similar situation to the Dardennes, with New Wave picking up Lorna because AE didn't want it and then AE getting Kid with a Bike because they could see its commercial potential. I wonder why Ceylan stuck with New Wave: loyalty or because AE missed Anatolia's appeal?

[MichaelB]

Although you could argue that, even though they can't really afford to take risks, absolutely everything Second Run releases is a risk and virtually everything New Wave releases is a risk too.

True, but I know for a fact that in order to take such risks Second Run has to watch every penny like the proverbial hawk, and I imagine the same is true of New Wave too. Second Run's entire business model relies on people's willingness to blind-buy, so they like to keep the RRP as low as they possibly can - typically £12.99, which in practice means less than a tenner from most outlets.

[repeat]

I think it's great that NWF are actually willing to recalculate the possibility of a Hors Satan Blu! I hope they'll take into account that such a release would probably have a substantial audience in the French-speaking world as well (provided they can evade the forced subtitles that have been plaguing AE's French acquisitions) - especially as it would be the first Blu-ray release of any Dumont film anywhere ever, as far as I know.

I do wish there was some feasible way for independent companies to gauge overall demand for risky products in the pre-manufacturing stage, for example by taking binding pre-orders. (Working in physical media retail, I know full well how risky the marketplace has become - stuff that even five years ago would've been totally cool for an initial order of 25 pcs is now almost strictly on a pre-order basis.)

BTW the VivaVerve product page states that the DVD includes Le fracas des pattes de l'araignée, a short documentary focusing on the sound design / mixing of the film (also present on the French DVD), a very nice extra. I'll be quite happy with this disc if the Blu won't materialize (but if it will, I'll get two of those instead! )

[McCrutchy]

This makes about 20/30 units of Hors Satan blu so far promised from here. We will do another calculation for its financial viability, but don't hold your breath too long. Incidentally, just looked at check disc of DVD today and looks pretty good.

I will buy as many as ten on more if you want. The idea of getting the first Dumont on Blu is too tantalizing, but please do make sure it's a full 1080p23.976 encode with lossless audio--that is all I ask.

EDIT: Added a thread about this to Blu-ray.com here, so that those members can add their interests.

EDIT #2: To newwavefilms: Out of curiosity, is there any way to ask / know if the French licensor would allow you to do a region-free Blu-ray Disc? It does not matter to me, but obviously, others may be interested if your disc is the only one in town.

[What A Disgrace]

I'm not a big fan of Dumont, but Hors Satan sounds like a blast to me. I'd definitely buy a Blu; I'll be picking up the one of Tabu after my next paycheck.

[bdlover]

Would pre-order Hors Satan or any other Dumont blu-ray in an instant. Reluctantly bought the Hadewijch DVD from New Wave, but really no interest in this one (or any other DVD), it's not 2009 anymore... We have a family policy of only playing blu-ray through the projector now, there's so much great stuff coming out that we already have enough on the shelf to last a couple of years.

[OnOnt]

I'm in for a Hors Satan Blu-ray, I had to miss the theatrical run so I'd prefer a Blu over DVD.

[newwavefilms]

It looks like the only way to make a Hors Satan blu-ray viable is sharing costs with other distributors. Checking this out.

Also, as it seems to be a bone of contention in posts above, film-makers and producers want their films shown in the cinema first, and are very unlikely to agree to video-only release.

[peerpee]

A London theatrical release to promote the Blu-ray release the month after, perfect!

[Oedipax]

Count me in for the Hors Satan blu as well.

I think I already asked about this upthread, but what about a Kickstarter-style model for video releases where everyone in this thread (and other forums like it) could pledge money to buy a copy in order to reassure NWF that there's a real market for it? If enough people do it, awesome, the people who pledged have effectively preordered the release. If not, too bad, but no one's credit card gets charged and we move on to some other title. Or maybe we just keep waiting and trying to hit a certain number of commitments from people to purchase.

[repeat]

I think I already asked about this upthread, but what about a Kickstarter-style model for video releases where everyone in this thread (and other forums like it) could pledge money

Yep, that's what I too meant with

some feasible way for independent companies to gauge overall demand for risky products in the pre-manufacturing stage, for example by taking binding pre-orders

Such a system would naturally be based on a high degree of trust in anonymous internet users, unless some arrangement could be worked out that would actually bind the customers (I don't know how this would work in the UK - collecting advance payments for a non-existent or projected product is illegal in my country, which is why Kickstarter is not an option for producers over here).

I'm sorry to yammer on about this, but I have to correct my speculations above on potential French demand for Hors Satan: I mentioned it on DVDClassik, and sadly there doesn't appear to be much interest on that forum. It was suggested that this might be not so much because they don't import (because they certainly do), but because a decent DVD came out there in March 2012 already, and most fans of the film will probably have acquired that in the meantime, changing the situation from choosing between two releases to upgrading and ending up with a double. While I fully understand the priority of a cinematic run before video release, the points raised in the AE thread made me wonder if NWF was contractually bound to hold back on this release for well over a year? (In The Fog is coming out on DVD in Germany in May and I think a similar situation can reasonably be envisaged)