425 Antonio Gaudí

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matrixschmatrix
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Re: Antonio Gaudi (Hiroshi Teshigahara, 1984)

#51 Post by matrixschmatrix » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:17 pm

knives wrote: It's not related to Gaudi, but Ken Burns' doc on Frank Lloyd Wright gives a good primer on how to 'understand' or whatever term you wish to use architecture. It's also just plain entertaining.
I'll have to check that out, thanks. One of the interesting things that occasionally pops up with Criterion are releases that amount to cinematic primers for other artforms- modern dance with Martha Graham: Dance on Film, the theatricality of Brecht and Shakespeare with Threepenny Opera and Richard III respectively, opera with The Tales of Hoffmann, etc- outside of Shakespeare, I had no history with any of them, and was transformed into a fan by each, in large part because of Criterion's careful curatorship and choice of materials. As architecture as an aesthetic form has always been a terrible blind spot for me- as in, I don't even know that I could say honestly that I know what I like- I'm hoping finishing off this package will help. It's certainly possible that I'm too far gone for a six hour primer to do me much good, though.

I don't doubt Teshihagara's sincere interest in Gaudi and I don't actually think the movie is reducible to a slideshow of slightly moving pictures- I just can't see anything more myself, which I suspect is due more to a deficiency on my end then in Teshihagara's.
Last edited by matrixschmatrix on Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jindianajonz
Jindiana Jonz Abrams
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Re: Antonio Gaudi (Hiroshi Teshigahara, 1984)

#52 Post by jindianajonz » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:37 pm

MichaelB wrote:I wish I had more time this week to rewatch things, because I remember originally watching the film as the fourth in a Teshigahara quadruple bill and despite it being made two decades after the rest, it was clearly the work of the same man - and equally clear from his earlier films that his interest in architecture is more than merely pictorial.

In particular, it's worth bearing in mind that Teshigahara was also a painter, sculptor, garden designer and flower arranger (a much more serious art form in Japan than in the West), and he'd been obsessed by Gaudí since 1959 - tellingly, before he made the fiction features on which his reputation mainly rests.
Even if you can't get to it before this thread locks, it'd still be great to hear a defense of this film at some point in the future! Like I said, I enjoy watching this film, but going through it again made me realize I'd have a very tough time justifying it to somebody who wasn't already taken with Gaudi. I've never seen any of Teshigahara's other work either, so I have no clue how this fits into the rest of his ouvre.

Matrix- don't forget Pina! I thought that one was particularly eye opening (though I haven't seen the Martha Graham film)

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MichaelB
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Re: Antonio Gaudi (Hiroshi Teshigahara, 1984)

#53 Post by MichaelB » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:57 pm

I wouldn't rule out having more time later this week - I'm totally focused right now on quite a complicated multimedia lecture on Jan Švankmajer that I'm giving in Brighton tomorrow, but I'll be able to relax after that for the first time in what seems like weeks! And I'd love to rewatch Teshigahara's films, so this is a perfect excuse.

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knives
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Re: Antonio Gaudi (Hiroshi Teshigahara, 1984)

#54 Post by knives » Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:05 pm

matrixschmatrix wrote: I'll have to check that out, thanks. One of the interesting things that occasionally pops up with Criterion are releases that amount to cinematic primers for other artforms- modern dance with Martha Graham: Dance on Film, the theatricality of Brecht and Shakespeare with Threepenny Opera and Richard III respectively, opera with The Tales of Hoffmann, etc- outside of Shakespeare, I had no history with any of them, and was transformed into a fan by each, in large part because of Criterion's careful curatorship and choice of materials. As architecture as an aesthetic form has always been a terrible blind spot for me- as in, I don't even know that I could say honestly that I know what I like- I'm hoping finishing off this package will help. It's certainly possible that I'm too far gone for a six hour primer to do me much good, though.

I don't doubt Teshihagara's sincere interest in Gaudi and I don't actually think the movie is reducible to a slideshow of slightly moving pictures- I just can't seen anything more myself, which I suspect is due more to a deficiency on my end then in Teshihagara's.
If it helps any the Burns' is less than 2 1/2 hours rather than six. It mostly focuses on the development of architecture in America across the 20th century and dealing specifically with Wright's philosophy.
Last edited by knives on Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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matrixschmatrix
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Re: Antonio Gaudi (Hiroshi Teshigahara, 1984)

#55 Post by matrixschmatrix » Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:10 pm

I hate not understanding artforms, so I'll certainly give it a whirl. Say what you like about Burns, but he's certainly not reticent about getting information across in his docs.

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MichaelB
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Re: Antonio Gaudi (Hiroshi Teshigahara, 1984)

#56 Post by MichaelB » Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:51 pm

matrixschmatrix wrote:One of the interesting things that occasionally pops up with Criterion are releases that amount to cinematic primers for other artforms- modern dance with Martha Graham: Dance on Film, the theatricality of Brecht and Shakespeare with Threepenny Opera and Richard III respectively, opera with The Tales of Hoffmann, etc- outside of Shakespeare, I had no history with any of them, and was transformed into a fan by each, in large part because of Criterion's careful curatorship and choice of materials. As architecture as an aesthetic form has always been a terrible blind spot for me- as in, I don't even know that I could say honestly that I know what I like- I'm hoping finishing off this package will help. It's certainly possible that I'm too far gone for a six hour primer to do me much good, though.
Some supposedly "difficult" works become far more comprehensible once you start filtering them through different media. For instance, an art historian would find Sergei Parajanov's The Colour of Pomegranates far less formally challenging than your average cinephile, while the notoriously forbidding-looking 'Sirens' chapter of Ulysses (the one that begins "Bronze by gold heard the hoofirons, steelyringing Imperthnthn thnthnthn.") makes near-complete sense once you twig that James Joyce is paying tribute to music and that the sound of the words is as important - frequently more important - as/than what they appear to be saying.

In fact, I'm writing a lecture on Jan Švankmajer right now which is at least partly about how his own highly distinctive aesthetic was developed from a background in puppetry, multimedia theatre and the fine arts, not a conventional film education - and from what I know of Teshigahara (much less than I should), it's clear that his own background similarly drew heavily on other disciplines, film being merely one of the ways in which he expressed himself.

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movielocke
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Re: Antonio Gaudi (Hiroshi Teshigahara, 1984)

#57 Post by movielocke » Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:09 pm

What I took away from the film happened about 2/3 of the way through. The film was at the plaza, then and was down below, on the outer walkway amongst the pillars holding up the upper part of the plaza. And there was a visual blending, for me, of the angled pillars and the angled palm trees, which the pillars perfectly mimic. Teshigahara even frames the shots perfectly so that the pillars seem to have grown out of the ground and have palm fronds rippling from their tops.

And it was this approach that Gaudi seemed to pull his forms from the earth as though the rock had grown that way that was most impressive to me. Gaudi takes the familiar, the natural world and makes it unfamiliar by turning into architecture and building. It is an absolutely fascinating inversion of the usual human works. Usually human construction is distinctly "other" from the natural order of things, but because this 'otherness' is the dominant standard we have made it the normal and the familiar. And that's sort of the cognitive dissonance about his architecture, it feels right, it looks right, it asserts itself as a part of the world, not apart from it. So to me, it feels 'correct' even as it feels absolutely 'wrong'. It is aesthetically pleasing at the same moment it is aesthetically disruptive. And that cognitive dissonance causes my mind to wheel wildly, so that the familiar--the straight lines and brutal blocks--suddenly feels other.

There's a sense of the alien and a sense of the natural all at the same time. it's wonderful.

And that sense of the alien brings me to another strong association my mind made while watching the film. When we tilt down inside the 'study' midway through the film and there is suddenly a person in the frame I was immediately struck with the same sense of visual and aural shock that I get in 2001, post gateway, when the camera reveals show us either the monolith or the ageing Dave. That sense of the alien and the imposition within the text of the film was a shock partway through the film.

I'm also fascinated by the questions of scopophilia this film raises. How are we looking? How are we limited and directed? How is the director shaping our gaze, shaping our perceptions with the way he lights and frames the camera's voyeuristic views of the architecture. To see the architecture is not the same as to be in the architecture, and architecture is fundamentally an experience of being and place, of which seeing is only a portion of the experience. This is not a three dimensional experience of place, it's a flattened and distorted approximation, as every reproduction we look at which has passed through a lens is flattened and distorted.

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Antonio Gaudi (Hiroshi Teshigahara, 1984)

#58 Post by Mr Sausage » Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:24 pm

Oddly, church architecture, or at least the history of it, is the one area of architecture I know anything about, so you'd think I'd have responded more to the latter sections dealing with the Sagrada Familia. Am I mistaken, or is it difficult to get a sense of the whole of each of Gaudi's buildings in Teshigahara's film? Admittedly, I wasn't always paying close attention, but it did feel like the film focused a lot on the individual details, but rarely on the entirety of the building or the relation of the various pieces to each other. That's somewhat alienating to someone who likes to approach physical art deductively, as it were, starting from the whole (I like floor plans) before getting a sense of how the individual pieces fit together to finally ending with an individual appreciation of each piece.
MichaelB wrote:For instance, an art historian would find Sergei Parajanov's The Colour of Pomegranates far less formally challenging than your average cinephile,
Slightly on a tangent, but at least related in principle to an earlier comment of mine: is my general lack of response to mediaeval painting, especially its flatness, a major reason why I also didn't respond to Paradjanov's film?

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movielocke
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Re: Antonio Gaudi (Hiroshi Teshigahara, 1984)

#59 Post by movielocke » Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:34 pm

jindianajonz wrote: So yeah, despite loving the subject and enjoying the film, in the end I'm forced to admit that the film just isn't very good. Teshigahara doesn't come close to doing justice to the subject matter, he's not going to convert anybody over who didn't already have some knowledge and interest in Gaudi, and he apparently doesn't even get the man's name right- he is called Antoni Gaudi, not Antonio as the title suggests. This film is just a collection of Teshigahara's vacation slides, without the benefit of having him in the same room explaining what it is we're seeing and why he felt it was important to capture these images. I'm sad to see that my fears were confirmed, and that people who weren't familiar with Gaudi continue to be unmoved by him. I think this only underscores how big a failure this film is- it's almost an accomplishment to showcase such an incredible body of work in a way that is so unevocative. If there's anybody who would still like to know more about Gaudi after this viewing experience, as MichaelB says, the Criterion disc also includes a much more informative and conventional BBC documentary, which also features a very dry, cynical, and British host. It's probably a much better introduction to Gaudi than the main feature was.
Well all I knew about Gaudi prior to watching this last week was that he had an unfinished famous church somewhere in spain that was 'pretty' when I saw some documentary on spain fifteen years ago during a half-slept through Spanish Class in high school. And despite not knowing really anything about him, Teshigahara completely won me over to Gaudi. and part of what I loved about the film was how it managed to breathe in and out within the space of each individual place featured during the film. Watching the film, to me, was an experience of stillness--of a breath. It was stunning, impressive filmmaking that was incredibly evocative because of how it was presented in gaze and time.

The Ken Russell documentary was wonderful. The BBC documentary was utterly horrendous, nonstop disgusting mindless camera moves that are layered and dissolved on top of each other in atrociously ugly fades, it might as well be an "after" montage straight off of HGTV. but that's mostly restricted to the opening of the program. The rest of the program is worse because the host continually complains in a paternalistic and somewhat mocking manner that Gaudi is the wrong sort of artist--religious--who really could never be great because of that limitation *shudder* but in spite of all that awful religious crap Gaudi represents, the host still finds him "interesting." Just an utterly vile and reprehensible approach that tries to infantilize Gaudi from beginning to end.

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jindianajonz
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Re: Antonio Gaudi (Hiroshi Teshigahara, 1984)

#60 Post by jindianajonz » Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:13 pm

Mr Sausage wrote:Am I mistaken, or is it difficult to get a sense of the whole of each of Gaudi's buildings in Teshigahara's film?
Very much so, but I'm not sure if that's something that can be helped. The Sagrada Familia is just massive, and photos just can't do justice to the scale of the thing. Also, a lot of what exists now didn't exist at the time the film was made- a cubist style Passion facade has gone up opposite the Nativity Facade, and the interior of the building has mostly been completed. And it will still grow in the coming years, as this video shows. Walking through the main hall, with its white arborial columns and bone-like staircases stretching to unbelievable heights, almost gives you the impression that you've been eaten by some large sea creature- this is something that I don't think a film can ever fully convey.

MovieLocke- You are summing up my feelings for Gaudi almost exactly, so I guess the film is capable of passing on that unqiue experience. I am very glad to see that my belief that this film is inaccessible for those unfamiliar with Gaudi have been proven wrong. I had jotted something down in my notes that the best thing about Gaudi is how his work is so alien yet at the same time so intrinsically of this planet, but you have articulated that feeling much better than I could have! So have you started looking at plane tickets to Barcelona? :wink:

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Re: Antonio Gaudi (Hiroshi Teshigahara, 1984)

#61 Post by movielocke » Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:52 pm

jindianajonz wrote: have you started looking at plane tickets to Barcelona? :wink:
I told my wife this weekend that if we visit our friends in London sometime in the next few years, I want to get to Barcelona too. She thought that was a wonderful idea. :D

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htshell
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Re: Antonio Gaudi (Hiroshi Teshigahara, 1984)

#62 Post by htshell » Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:33 pm

I had the good fortune to see this film in 35mm the past summer with an audience of about eighty (about double what I expected would show up). It looked amazing up on the big screen and I was transfixed. The crystalline quality of the architecture, the slow-moving and somewhat haunting music, the still majesty of these architectural forms were all came together very well for me. Sure it's not the most informational documentary but it achieves an artistic vision that many informational documentaries aspire to but fall short of. Rather than biography, Teshigahara lets the spaces speak for themselves, either on their own or through the ways that people interact with them.

I appreciated Movielocke's analysis about how seeing and being in architecture are two very different things.

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zedz
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Re: Antonio Gaudi (Hiroshi Teshigahara, 1984)

#63 Post by zedz » Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:24 pm

Without a reviewing, my recollections of the film are all messed up with my recollections of the buildings themselves, but I felt that Teshigahara's calm and immersive approach, without a lot of context, was a fine approximation of the experience of visiting the architecture in person. When you visit the buildings, you generally don't get an overall sense of 'how the building works'. You're not privy to floorplans, you will quite likely only have access to certain parts of the building, and those parts might be so radically different from one another that it's hard to mentally fit the pieces together. Your attention will shift from the grand spectacle to the detail of surfaces: true to its organic inspiration, Gaudi's work is spectacularly fractal. Some projects are so vast that you can't get an overview when you're on the ground / in the building; others are so modest that what you see (in the film) is what you get (in real life). And you're not experiencing the architecture in time lapse (motion control was, of course, not an option for any documentary maker at the time) or from a circling helicopter, and I actually think the latter 'big picture' approach to the buildings wouldn't actually serve the organic detail and tactile intimacy of the work very well at all. Another thing is that the aesthetic experience is so distinctive and intense that at a certain point you do start to process this great variety of work, in various states of completion and repair, spread over an entire city, as one big thing, so I think Teshigahara's decision not to identify exactly what you're seeing in every shot is a valid one.

I don't think Teshigahara can be blamed for opting for an experiential documentary rather than a didactic one.

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jindianajonz
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Re: Antonio Gaudi (Hiroshi Teshigahara, 1984)

#64 Post by jindianajonz » Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:47 pm

zedz wrote:When you visit the buildings, you generally don't get an overall sense of 'how the building works'.
Considering that the admission price for Sagrada Familia, Casa Batllo, and Palau Guell all include an Audioguide, you kind of do. But I get your point :wink:

It got a bit lost in my unwieldy wall of text, but if I had to pick a single criticism of the film, it's how motionless the camera is. You make some great arguments about how Teshigahara's style mimics what it is like to actually visit the buildings, but for me the most important part of Gaudi's work is walking around a particular feature and admiring how the shape of it changes. I mentioned a scene where Teshigahara specifically does this with a column in the Gaudi Crypt, and another where he does something similar, though not quite as effective, with a cieling at Park Guell (The one with the long, serpentine mosaic bench and columned walkways), but all too often Teshigahara only shows an object from a single perspective. The nature of Gaudi's style practically begs to be seen from different angles, and I felt Teshigahara's style, though always well composed, was very limiting. I know next to nothing about art, but I think a reasonable comparison would be showing Monet's work from a distance that doesn't allow you to see the texture and brush strokes.

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zedz
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Re: Antonio Gaudi (Hiroshi Teshigahara, 1984)

#65 Post by zedz » Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:54 pm

jindianajonz wrote:
zedz wrote:When you visit the buildings, you generally don't get an overall sense of 'how the building works'.
Considering that the admission price for Sagrada Familia, Casa Batllo, and Palau Guell all include an Audioguide, you kind of do. But I get your point :wink:
I'm particularly thinking of La Pedrera, where the street frontage, the atrium, the attic space and the roof all seem like they could belong to completely unrelated buildings, and from those I really can't infer what the areas of the building that I couldn't see would be like.

This is all about eye candy, so here are some 'blind men exploring an elephant' views of the building.

Street view:
Image

Atrium:
Image

Attic space:
Image

Roof:
Image

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Re: Antonio Gaudi (Hiroshi Teshigahara, 1984)

#66 Post by Emak-Bakia » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:07 pm

I finally watched this very late last night, and my immediate reaction to it is one of mostly boredom, meaning my thoughts often drifted to personal matters unrelated to the film. I considered turning it off at about the halfway point, but I feel like this could possibly be the kind of work that will stick with me for a while. In such instances, I think sometimes it’s wise to soak the whole thing in and then see what magic memory can work on the subject over the coming months or years. After all, I had a similar reaction the first time I saw Sans Soleil, and it's now one of my favorite films. So I endured.

Given some time to sleep on it, I feel I can articulate my current thoughts a little better. My interest in architecture is casual. I will often spend time in my city and other places admiring buildings or details of buildings, but I simply didn’t find this film to be visually interesting enough to hold my attention for the duration. I certainly don’t mean that as a slight against Gaudi, because his work is, of course, astonishing. For entirely personal reasons, though, on an instinctive level I’m just not drawn to tourist attractions. I don’t mean to discount the power that I’m sure visiting many of these structures has in person, but, pictorially, I simply don’t understand the drive to preserve these images that have no doubt already been recorded millions of times.

With that out of the way, I like to think I always try very hard to find an avenue to appreciate a work of art. I quite like what zedz wrote above:
zedz wrote:I felt that Teshigahara's calm and immersive approach, without a lot of context, was a fine approximation of the experience of visiting the architecture in person.


Just as Mr. Sausage described, I found myself frustrated that Teshigahara repeatedly does not attempt to give the viewer a complete mental portrait of the interior or exterior of the buildings. But I think what zedz wrote rationalizes that in quite a nice way. With this perspective, I think it also makes sense why the camera mostly stays on the ground. I was repeatedly struck by the almost holy reverence Teshigahara seems to be communicating for these structures (in this way, I was reminded of Malick’s last two films.) The buildings are physically and temporally so much greater than any one human. In the film, there is even a quote from Gaudi that was about how Sagrada Família will not be completed in his lifetime, so another architect will take up the project and add something of his own to the structure (and, of course, it has turned into many architects contributing to the project.)

I, unfortunately, wasn’t struck with this feeling of awe that I think the director intended, but, as I’ve already suggested, I’m not prepared to attack the filmmaker’s techniques or call it a bad film, because I feel my hangups are largely personal. Indeed, judging by the reactions here, it seems like this film has evoked very personal reactions from most of its viewers. I guess I should expect such a thing when the work is described as a “visual poem” right on the back of the DVD box. Like a poem, this film seems to be getting at something ineffable, which I admire, but don't quite understand at the moment.

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Re: Antonio Gaudi (Hiroshi Teshigahara, 1984)

#67 Post by movielocke » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:27 pm

Emak-Bakia wrote: The buildings are physically and temporally so much greater than any one human. In the film, there is even a quote from Gaudi that was about how Sagrada Família will not be completed in his lifetime, so another architect will take up the project and add something of his own to the structure (and, of course, it has turned into many architects contributing to the project.)
I think that's a very good way of putting it and also to understanding Teshigahara's approach. The building occupy temporal space as well as physical space, and his use of time in holding a gaze is crucial to communicating that sensation. I don't mean to sound mystical, rather, one of things I take from architecture is the sensation of time, of a building's place in time, and how buildings are often like a rock jutting out of a rushing stream, holding still in one place as time billows and rushes around it.

I think that's in part why I find the style of the BBC doc so aesthetically unpleasant, the pacing is all wrong for the architecture and there is not a defined gaze that let's you experience the place.

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Re: 425 Antonio Gaudí

#68 Post by Lemmy Caution » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:36 am

Announcement that work is going to commence on the central spire of the Sagrada Familia Cathedral and a completion date of 2026 set. Article says the church if 70% complete. And interiors expected to be finished by 2030 or so.

There's also a campaign to beatify Gaudi and make him the patron saint of architects. The article was from May 2014 and expected the process to be complete by the end of 2015. Still need a miracle to become a full saint, but veneration ain't too shabby. Do people pray to Gaudi to heal their afflictions?

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Re: 425 Antonio Gaudí

#69 Post by swo17 » Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:44 pm


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Re: 425 Antonio Gaudí

#70 Post by Glowingwabbit » Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:34 pm

swo17 wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:44 pm
BD upgrade Feb 18
Wow this is one of number of titles I figured they'd never bother to upgrade.

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Brian C
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Re: 425 Antonio Gaudí

#71 Post by Brian C » Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:02 pm

Funny, because it’s one of those titles I had thought was upgraded long ago.

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movielocke
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Re: 425 Antonio Gaudí

#72 Post by movielocke » Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:46 am

Brian C wrote:Funny, because it’s one of those titles I had thought was upgraded long ago.
Not surprising, so many of the 2007-2010 dvd titles have been upgraded its the norm for this era of releases to have upgrades

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jegharfangetmigenmyg
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Re: 425 Antonio Gaudí

#73 Post by jegharfangetmigenmyg » Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:08 pm

I remember watching this back when it was released on dvd. Being a big fan of Teshigahara's fiction films, but not so much of his (short) docs, I didn't expect much, but I remember being pretty much floored by it – such a special and hypnotic experience that I've never forgotten, and always wanted to revisit. Takemitsu's score really makes it stand out as an almost avantgarde film experience. Very much looking forward to re-watching it in HD.

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movielocke
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Re: 425 Antonio Gaudí

#74 Post by movielocke » Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:36 pm

My biggest reason for upgrading most dvds I own, like Gaudi, was to get rid of the extremely irritating wibdowboxing, but with the channel generally not having windowboxing (that I’ve noticed), I don’t feel the need to upgrade except for really top tier films.

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