309 Ugetsu

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King of Kong
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#101 Post by King of Kong » Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:33 pm

I viewed Ugetsu again recently. I enjoyed it as before, though, as before, I was a little put off by the schematic nature of the plot. One could offer the justification that it is based primarily on fable-like literary sources, but I'm keen to hear some more thoughts on this.

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Michael Kerpan
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#102 Post by Michael Kerpan » Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:50 pm

kinjitsu wrote:Speak of the devil! I thought you would chime in sooner or later but am surprised you didn't recommend that gubbelsj read the relevant chapters in David Bordwell's Figures Traced in Light.
Yes, Bordwell's chapter on Mizoguchi IS indispensable. ;~}

Also quite useful -- the volume on Ugetsu edited by Keiko McDonald.

MEK

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#103 Post by gubbelsj » Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:16 pm

I've enjoyed everything I've read by Bordwell, I'm sure Figures Traced In Light will be no exception. Many thanks for the recommendations. The Rutgers / McDonald volume has long been on my wish list.

Incidentally, I didn't mind the Shindo documentary on the Criterion set as much as some did (although the scenes with Kinuyo Tanaka made me squirm a bit). Even though Shindo quickly brushed off or explained away any accusation leveled against Mizoguchi, at least the events were put on record, unlike in Kiselyak's A Constant Forge. Now there was some hagiography for you. And it didn't have a close up of Cassavetes' urine bottle, either.

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daniel p
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#104 Post by daniel p » Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:18 pm

King of Kong wrote:I viewed Ugetsu again recently. I enjoyed it as before, though, as before, I was a little put off by the schematic nature of the plot. One could offer the justification that it is based primarily on fable-like literary sources, but I'm keen to hear some more thoughts on this.
Check out the booklet...

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#105 Post by Michael Kerpan » Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:26 pm

gubbelsj wrote:Incidentally, I didn't mind the Shindo documentary on the Criterion set as much as some did (although the scenes with Kinuyo Tanaka made me squirm a bit).
What struck me on going through this again is how fundamentally superficial this was. Yes, there are interesting bits -- but nothing remotely revelatory. It struck me as very much the work of a fanboy.

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#106 Post by skuhn8 » Sun May 07, 2006 9:26 am

Finally finished going through the whole Ugetsu package. This was my first Mizoguchi experience. Very impressive beautifully crafted film. I, too, felt the samurai subplot felt a little forced and at odds with the feeling (at least my experience) of the rest of the film.

But...that documentary! What the hell is that? Before last week I knew nothing about KM other than that he was a director. Japanese. No longer amongst the living. After sitting through an exasperating 2 1/2 hours I learned that he used a urine bottle on the set, was married, and made a lot of films. Easily one of the worst documentaries of a film maker i have ever seen. I spent the last hour imitating the interviewers obnoxious grunting sounds....what's up with that? A compilation of interviews with people too polite to really say anything of substance hardly a good documentary makes. The whole thing should have been edited down to 45 minutes tops. I mean, interviewing his wife's nurse! She contributed absolutely nothing to an understanding of Mizoguchi. There were probably four people there who had anything useful to say. Ok, rant over. Sorry. I just really want my 2 1/2 hours back. [Rrrrr...grunt]

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#107 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sun May 07, 2006 11:28 am

I find Shindo's "documentary" to be quite problematic. I think all the interviewees knew he was a fanboy who wouldn't be interested in much in the way of candid discussion -- and I find Shindo's hectoring interview of Tanaka (who wouldn't let herself be pushed around) pretty offensive.

The problem with Mizoguchi is that he was a "not very nice" (to be polite) man who made wonderful films -- and Shindo's film paid much more attention to the man than to the films.

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#108 Post by skuhn8 » Sun May 07, 2006 12:35 pm

Well, I got the impression that this doc is really about the man more than the films, that is, that was the objective--as evidenced by the opening audio salvo where the crew is struggling to film the floor where Kenji spent his last days. And that is already where I knew I was in trouble. I don't care what the floor of a hospital looks like where Stalin, Mizoguchi, my grandfather or anyone else died. It's their works, where they lived and created that concerns me. The scene with Tanaka was actually a highlight for me. They tried to crack her and she held up with such regality--not coyness, no--regality. That was worthy if unintentional on the part of the doc filmmakers. And the grunting. Is this how interviews are handled? I don't mean to be culturally insensitive, I seriously want to know if serious conversations consist of such grunting punctuating every 2-3 words of the interview, perhaps as encouragement?

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#109 Post by montgomery » Sun May 07, 2006 12:40 pm

Gee, everyone really hates that documentary...I enjoyed it myself. A little disjointed (and long-winded), and certainly not a definitive biography of his life, but enjoyable, unique, enlightening in certain regards.

I must say I'm surprised that the discussion about Ugetsu's opening shot, which seems to be screwed up on the DVD, just sort of fizzled out and isn't mentioned anymore. I see a lot of heated discussions and arguments on this board about really minor, esoteric things (like cover art, and other things that have little or nothing to do with the films themselves), but here the legendary opening shot to a masterpiece is apparently ruined, and nobody wants answers, no one wants to mention it...Do people not want to admit that Criterion probably made a pretty serious error? Much worse than the old cover to Viridiana.

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#110 Post by skuhn8 » Sun May 07, 2006 12:52 pm

Check out the Jules and Jim thread regarding forum members wrath regarding minor CC mistakes. Re Ugetsu: It's just that there was no resolution, no definitive answer on the matter. I think this comes down to an "available sources" issue. It doesn't appear that the CC is responsible for this. No mention on the commentary either FWIW. It matches the other dvds available, what are you going to do. Yes, there was some copy from TCM that differed, with a different intro for the domestic Japanese market I believe.

Anyway, certainly not disappointed with the CC for including said doc as that wasn't responsible for higher price point, just disappointed that someone who purports to be a acolyte takes so little interest in the films of such a revered director.

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#111 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sun May 07, 2006 1:56 pm

Short of reviewing copies of very early release prints of Ugetsu, how does one resolve the opening shot issue? Criterion definitely didn't do anything "wrong". They didn't muck up the source they used here.

It is useful have Shindo's film -- because it does give us snippets of interviews with some interesting people -- just like Tokyo ga gives us the interviews of Chishu Ryu And Yuharu Atsuta. Too bad someone more perceptive didn't make better use of the access he had -- as many ofg the interviewees are now beyond re-interviewing.

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#112 Post by Gregory » Sun May 07, 2006 2:20 pm

Michael, I'm a little perplexed in some ways by all the short comments you've made about this documentary (or is it a "documentary"?). I'd be interested in clarifying your position. You seem to criticize Shindo for failing to delve sufficiently into personal issues while at the same time saying that he shouldn't have focused on them in the first place: First you criticized it for "glossing over certain unsavory aspects of Mizoguchi's personal behavior." Then you stated that these aspects are relatively unimportant to you compared to a careful analysis of the films. Finally, you seem to explain one of the film's weaknesses by speculating that "all the interviewees knew he was a fanboy who wouldn't be interested in much in the way of candid discussion." Candid discussion of his life, presumably, because the film's entire purpose was biographical not a critical evaluation of his work. Finally you say that "The problem with Mizoguchi is that he was a 'not very nice' (to be polite) man who made wonderful films -- and Shindo's film paid much more attention to the man than to the films." It seems you've got Shindo coming and going.

What kind of approach do you think he should have taken? If he had really tried to dig all the skeletons out of MIzoguchi's closet, it probably would have come across as "sleazy," as you characterized Shindo's dramatized script about Tanaka, which I thought was rather impersonal in some respects. On the other hand, he couldn't really have attempted a critical film analysis because he's not a film critic or a film scholar. If he had tried, it might have been interesting (although certainly very different from Bordwell) but that wasn't the kind of project he was inspired and equipped to do.

About his being a "fanboy" (a term of abuse you've used a few times in this thread): I think the generally accepted definition of the term has to do with people who are especially nerdy about their hobbies (and often related to things targeted at children: Superman, Star Wars, etc.). Fanboys do not typically hold the same occupation as their idols and I don't believe they ever work with them, as Shindo did on Genroku Chushingura. It seem far more accurate to say that the latter was his mentor, but maybe that's just me.
montgomery wrote:...certainly not a definitive biography of his life, but enjoyable, unique, enlightening in certain regards.
I agree with this assessment. I can see how extremely high hopes for the film could be dashed, but I can't imagine anyone not finding a few worthwhile things in it -- the archival Mizoguchi interview footage is an obvious example.

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#113 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sun May 07, 2006 3:18 pm

All I can say, Gregory, is that Shindo's film rubs me (very much) the wrong way. I find the tone peculiar and unpleasant. Yes, Shindo did have proefessional credentials at this point -- yet his attitude seems remarkably perverse and juvenile -- very much that of a fanboy. (The film also strikes me as poorly structured and poorly focused).

There is a weird combination here of idol worship and sniggering at the a few of the "dirty bits" of the Mizoguchi story. It certainly isn't as blatant a biographical whitewash as Le Fanu's recent book (which ironically is also execrably structured and mis-focused).

Not sure what _I_ would have done with the assets Shindo had available at the time he made the film. Nonetheless, I can still find it both amateurish and creepy. (Sorry to provide such an unsatisfactory answer).

I must confess my negativity to this film is colored by my hostility to the cheesy and trashy Shindo-written (Ichikawa-directed) movie -- Eiga joyu (1987) --made to exploit the tenth anniversary of Tanaka's death.

It is useful to have this (essentially as a freebie) -- but it realy is quite a bad job compared to the rather nice "I Lived But" (which looked back at Ozu and his films).

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#114 Post by Gregory » Sun May 07, 2006 3:52 pm

Michael Kerpan wrote:There is a weird combination here of idol worship and sniggering at the a few of the "dirty bits" of the Mizoguchi story.

I do know what you mean about that, but at the same time I find it understandable. From my own experience doing oral history interviews I know how hard it often is to bring up unpleasant or controversial personal topics with an interviewee. For the sake of their own peace of mind, a person will have made their own peace with something difficult on scandalous (on their part or someone else's) and put it to rest long ago. Therefore, they resist dredging it up again. A related source of reticence is the idea most people have that it's more gracious to say little than to say much, even if saying more add some valuable things to the documentary record. Most people figure it's bad form to speak ill of the dead, and such. So sometimes the most you can get is an acknowledgement of something that both the interviewer and the subject know to be true. I think that's why there are certain moments in the film when Shindo and the interviewees take pause from praising Mizoguchi's talents and achievements for things like, "He loved women, very much," "Oh yes, he certainly did" (wink, wink) -- next topic.

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#115 Post by whaleallright » Sun May 07, 2006 10:33 pm

I spent the last hour imitating the interviewers obnoxious grunting sounds....what's up with that?
It's a social convention in Japan to acknowledge the person with whom you're speaking by nodding and making small noises (more like "hmm" than a grunt)--you might be considered rude, or at least inattentive, otherwise. Nearly every Japanese documentary I've seen reflects this. One advantage of recognizing this is you begin to realize that the offscreen silence that accompanies talking heads in Western documentaries is an artefact of our own social conventions.

But I agree, Shindo seems more enthusiastic than most.
Last edited by whaleallright on Sat May 27, 2006 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#116 Post by Michael Kerpan » Mon May 08, 2006 7:30 am

The behavior is so extreme here that I believe it would be considered weird by Japanese too. I have listened to many other interviews in Japanese -- and while these ARE peppered by frequent interjections of "uh" and ""so ka" and the like -- I have never seen/heard anything else remotely like this.

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#117 Post by jguitar » Mon May 08, 2006 12:31 pm

I'd have to disagree here. I've often heard conversations among Japanese that approach Shindo's, shall we say enthusiastic, level of phatic speech here. One thing to remember is that Shindo knows many of the interview subjects quite well--he's not some outsider come to interview people he's never met before. One thing I like about this documentary is when Shindo is interviewing various film craftsmen about how they got a certain effect, or details about the nitty gritty of a shoot. There is an evident joy in the conversation, like two veterans remembering a difficult but successful campaign. This is not to quibble with the critical comments about the documentary itself which leaves much to be desired. But for what it is, it does give us a unique look into the Japanese film industry.

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#118 Post by Michael Kerpan » Mon May 08, 2006 12:49 pm

One can compare the speaking style here to that in the relatively informal conversation/interview of the Ozu old-timers -- included in the "Early Summer" set. These are old friends and movie-making insiders -- and they display plenty of enthusiasm -- but this sounds very little like Shindo's conversations with Mizoguchi's associates. ;~}

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#119 Post by jguitar » Mon May 08, 2006 2:31 pm

Good point Michael. I'm just saying that I've certainly heard similar kinds of interactions among Japanese quite often. To me, it seems within the range of normal.

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#120 Post by whaleallright » Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:29 pm

Title of Ugetsu in Kanji: 雨月物語

雨月/ [rain][moon]

物語 / [tales]

How did some translators get to "Tales of the Pale and Silvery Moon after the Rain" or "Tales of the Pale and Mysterious Moon after the Rain" from this? Wouldn't it simply be (reading from right to left) "Tales of the Moon and Rain"? Or am I missing certain nuances of the language?

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#121 Post by bunuelian » Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:25 am

Although it's not Japanese, I spent a lot of time studying Chinese in college. Literary Chinese is capable of expressing extraordinarily complex ideas with very few characters, and words like rain and moon can be broadly interpreted according to context and literary allusion. The rain moon characters could appear together only as part of another saying, a bit like saying, "The grass is always greener," but leaving out "on the other side of the fence." I'd be surprised if Japanese worked differently.

On the other hand, this could just be some overconfident Nipponophile's regurgitation of standard western obfuscation in the face of the east's difficult literary tradition. Throwing around "mysterious" and "pale" sells copy.

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#122 Post by Scharphedin2 » Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:30 am

I have a book at home that addresses these issues (I will post the title of it later). As I remember it, the thing about the Japanese characters is that they communicate not only a literal mening, but also a visual and a aural meaning. Therefore, each combination of characters can carry many nuances of meaning.

As an example the book quoted a passage from a novel by Tanizaki, which had been translated by three noted Western scholars. One translation was very literal and ran apx. 4 lines. Another translation was more detailed, and was about a paragraph long. The final translation was exceptionally detailed and descriptive, and took up a good half page of English text.

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#123 Post by Jimaku » Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:27 pm

jonah.77 wrote:How did some translators get to "Tales of the Pale and Silvery Moon after the Rain" or "Tales of the Pale and Mysterious Moon after the Rain" from this? Wouldn't it simply be (reading from right to left) "Tales of the Moon and Rain"? Or am I missing certain nuances of the language?
These are fanciful elaborations.

In classical Japanese poetry 雨月 referred to the 15th night of the 8th lunar month, when the full moon was often occluded by rain. It can also refer more generically to the moon on a rainy night. In haiku this is a "kigo" or seasonal word that signifies autumn (the 8th lunar month is in the autumn).

To make matters confusing, however, it was also another term for the 5th lunar month, which was when the rainy season occurred.

In the case of the film and the Ueda Akinari collection on which it is based, the reference is most likely just to the generic moon and rain, though we may surmise from the storyline that it takes place in the autumn and not in the rainy season.

"Tales of Moonlight and Rain" or "Tales of the Moonlight After the Rain" seem to me to be reasonable compromises between the overblown examples you just quoted and the excessively literal translationese of "Tales of the Moon and Rain."

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#124 Post by Sanjuro » Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:31 pm

Is the commentary track included on the Shindo documentary? I haven't listened to it yet (and it doesn't have subtitles on the Japanese DVD so might take a while) but it'd be interesting to hear what he has to say about it with hindsight.

It struck me as odd that a documentary like this would include a commentary track from the director so I guess he has some pretty strong feelings about it (there aren't any commentary tracks on the other DVDs of his that I've seen).

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#125 Post by kinjitsu » Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:50 am

Sanjuro wrote:Is the commentary track included on the Shindo documentary?
No, but there are a few comments in this thread.

Donald Richie reviews Anthony Chambers' translation of Ueda Akinari's Tales of Moonlight and Rain in The Japan Times.
Last edited by kinjitsu on Wed May 28, 2008 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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