317 The Tales of Hoffmann

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teddyleevin
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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#101 Post by teddyleevin » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:40 pm

I misremembered the excision of the recit between the Antonia aria and Frantz aria. In my mind that important recit was always included as it is very plot driven, but true as you mention, looking back at the DVD of the film, it goes right from the end of the Antonia aria, skipping 2 whole numbers if we go by the score (1. recit of Crespel and Antonia, then Frantz and Crespel; and 2. Frantz aria) into the recit: "Frantz, C'est ici." Hence why I remembered it as so jarring... but watching the film last night it seemed so seamless that I didn't think I seeing new material until the decidedly memorable "Jour et nuit."

So this good news is better than I realized. I'm shocked I misremembered as I did, but it doesn't make me any less glad to have it.

Is it confirmed that the Nicklausse/Muse material was actually shot? Or do we just have the still(s), which for all we know could be a makeup test, perhaps?

--

Another curiosity I noticed in the screening last night, but now confirmed it is a problem with the original assembly. During the Antonia's mother trio, there seems to accidentally (I hope... a weird decision if not) be two takes of Bruce Dargavel singing Dr. Miracle on top of each other. A misaligned splice I guess? It's so noisy it's hard to notice. It starts in THIS VIDEO at 27 seconds, and is especially noticeable about 8 seconds later when Dagarvel is definitely singing in thirds with himself (maybe he sang it wrong the first take and the second take he sang it correct, but they kept the first one by accident, so it appears as if he is singing in harmony with himself).

The funny thing is, Robert Helpmann doesn't lipsync so well to either Bruce Dargavel.
Last edited by teddyleevin on Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jonathan S
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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#102 Post by Jonathan S » Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:43 am

The film wasn't televised at all in the UK until 1978 but it's easy to forget how little interest there was in P&P (at least in Britain) in the 1960s and most of the '70s. I remember the 1973 Sunday Times Guide to Movies on Television (critically worthless but useful as a barometer of opinion) reviewing several of their films with amused contempt or even embarrassment, particularly A Matter of Life and Death.

That first BBC broadcast of Hoffmann removed almost all of Act 3 (Antonia) - presumably the same heavily cut US theatrical print mentioned in the Criterion commentary (1:35). I recorded the 1980 repeat and remember it ran about 105 mins. (with PAL speed-up), as confirmed by the Radio Times. The BBC were still using that heavily cut edition in 1988 and it wasn't until 1990 that they unveiled what they promoted as a "complete, restored version" of approximately two hours - similar to the one later on Criterion. (I don't think it has been televised in the UK since then, at least on the main channels.)

Decca released the soundtrack on 3 LPs (LXT 2582-4). Does that include the recently restored or still missing segments?

Stefan Andersson
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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#103 Post by Stefan Andersson » Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:46 pm

davidhare and teddyleevin -- thank you so much for all this information!

davidhare -- your reference to Anthony at HTF, and the 16mm IB print, means that the Nicklausse/Muse scene was probably shot, right?

Also, in the French AMOLAD Blu thread on HTF, I spotted this info from A Baglivi:

"The missing section from the prologue is placed in the Kleinzach aria and has a strange flash forward depicting Hoffman as the ugly jester. The Venice cut is a rousing chorus as Hoffmann joins the revelry. These cuts make the scenes play smoother and, if only for historical purposes, should be restored to the film as the creators, P/P, Beecham, Heckroth, and Arundell, conceived it."

Would appreciate any informed comments on this. It´s a bit hard to spot in the AMOLAD thread. Seems valuable to discuss.

Steve Crook discusses the Nicklausse/Muse scene in several posts here:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044103/boa ... /234154355" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Photo of the Muse: http://s26.photobucket.com/user/Rachael ... 8.jpg.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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teddyleevin
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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#104 Post by teddyleevin » Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:31 pm

Stefan Andersson wrote:"The missing section from the prologue is placed in the Kleinzach aria and has a strange flash forward depicting Hoffman as the ugly jester. The Venice cut is a rousing chorus as Hoffmann joins the revelry. These cuts make the scenes play smoother and, if only for historical purposes, should be restored to the film as the creators, P/P, Beecham, Heckroth, and Arundell, conceived it."
I don't totally follow. I don't remember seeing the former the other night at the screening; the latter sounds like the drinking song that has always been in the film so far as I remember.

Or are these two additional scenes that have been recovered but not included in the latest restoration?

Stefan Andersson
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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#105 Post by Stefan Andersson » Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:19 am

teddyleevin wrote:
Stefan Andersson wrote:"The missing section from the prologue is placed in the Kleinzach aria and has a strange flash forward depicting Hoffman as the ugly jester. The Venice cut is a rousing chorus as Hoffmann joins the revelry. These cuts make the scenes play smoother and, if only for historical purposes, should be restored to the film as the creators, P/P, Beecham, Heckroth, and Arundell, conceived it."
I don't totally follow. I don't remember seeing the former the other night at the screening; the latter sounds like the drinking song that has always been in the film so far as I remember.

Or are these two additional scenes that have been recovered but not included in the latest restoration?
I asked ABaglivi over on HTF to elaborate on these two cuts. He replied: "Stefan: The cuts were in the premiere release. I am awaiting the arrival of the new Blu from Amazon.uk. Will post when it is in hand."

Full thread here: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/3 ... ler/page-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Parallel discussion: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/3 ... ews/page-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Will post again if and when I find out more.

Stefan Andersson
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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#106 Post by Stefan Andersson » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:28 am

Michael Powell described suggested cuts in Hoffmann in a letter to Emeric Pressburger.

Powell discusses cuts in the Kleinzach, Olympia, Venice and Antonia segments.

Go here and scroll down to read the letter:

http://www.bfi.org.uk/news-opinion/news ... asterpiece" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To view next page of letter, click on circle at bottom of letter page.

Kleinzach: material deleted prior to the "Stella" poster. Seems to be a musical number. "Punch" is mentioned (alluding to Punch & Judy shows?). Approx. 2,5 minutes.

Olympia: "The Cockerel Cut". Might it be Nicklaus´s song about a wind-up rooster and a mechanical doll? Also, dialogue relating to Olympia and Nicklaus deleted.

Venice: Powell wants to restore material cut from the banquet scene to the English prints. It is "vulgar & rowdy". Could it be the rousing chorus, as Hoffmann joins the revelry, mentioned by ABaglivi?


Antonia: a longer discussion about two alternatives for shortening the sequence.
Last edited by Stefan Andersson on Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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teddyleevin
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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#107 Post by teddyleevin » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:38 pm

Stefan Andersson wrote: Kleinzach: material deleted prior to the "Stella" poster. Seems to be a musical number. "Punch" is mentioned (alluding to Punch & Judy shows?). Approx. 2,5 minutes.

Olympia: "The Cockerel Cut". Might it be Nicklaus´s song about a wind-up rooster and a mechanical doll? Also, dialogue relating to Olympia and Nicklaus deleted.
The former is most likely the "Allumons le punch!" that Hoffmann sings in the Epilogue to lead to a reprisal of themes from the Prologue (namely Kleinzach song gets a last verse). "Punch" could be short-hand for any of the drinking music from the Prologue (of which Offenbach has more than in the film) or something interpolated from the Epilogue, which would certainly fit.

The Cockerel cut as you say is almost certainly The one you mention, which, if included, would help Nicklausse's through-line and be almost necessary if the Muse ending were found. There is some more recit around this in which Nicklausse participates in teasing Hoffmann about his love for Olympia.

So, where is THIS footage? It seems we're not just looking for the Muse aria/epilogue scene, but a few more internal cuts from the earlier acts.

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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#108 Post by Stefan Andersson » Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:26 am

The BBFC passed Tales of Hoffmann at 140 mins. 7 secs. on March 1, 1951:

http://bbfc.co.uk/releases/tales-hoffman-1951" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(if page does not load, search for Tales of Hoffman to find all info about the film´s history with the BBFC)

Never heard of this length before (assuming their timing is correct).

Further re: the "Cockerel Cut" -- ABaglivi on the HTF reports:

"The Nicklaus aria (Cockrel cut) from the Olympia act runs 2 minutes 54 seconds, timed from the soundtrack recording."
"That timing includes the lead in or recitative."

Stefan Andersson
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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#109 Post by Stefan Andersson » Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:21 am

"ABaglivi" on HTF has seen the new Blu of Hoffmann, and reports:

"Tales of Hoffmann new Blu ray from Studio Canal, Region B locked. Here are the cuts as Michael Powell named them:

Prologue: The Kleinzach Cut, 2 minutes 30 seconds, footage still missing.

Olympia Act: The Cockerel Cut, 2 minutes 54 seconds, footage still missing.

Giulietta and Antonia acts are complete."



A question for teddyleevin - - - re: the "flashforward depicing Hoffmann as the ugly jester" described earlier by "ABaglivi" -- could Powell and Pressburger have had the idea to end the Kleinzach ballet with Hoffmann in the Kleinzach costume, to hint at parallells between Kleinzach and the Lady with the Mirror and Hoffmann´s tragic relationships with women?

Update: I asked ABaglivi the above question -- ABaglivi answered:
"Your guess is correct. When Kleinzach looks up from the floor after Hoffmann's line: "Resounding through my heart" it is Hoffmann in the jester's garb. The cut begins there, continues with another verse of the Kleinzach ballad, and the bringing in of the punch bowl."

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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#110 Post by teddyleevin » Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:03 am

Your emotional response to the curtain calls echoes mine completely when I saw the screening. It is truly a treasure that I felt I always wanted but never knew about.

Yes, generally, the Kleinzach aria is staged with 2 verses of Hoffmann singing the song, but then when the lush agitato section starts, Hoffmann begins to sing in palpable, emotional frenzy, it becomes clear to the tavern-folk that Hoffmann is no longer singing about Kleinzach, but about himself (this section is in the film and attention is directed at Kleinzach who then sees his reflection and dies; a moment not found in the opera as Kleinzach himself doesn't usually appear, but from folklore in general, namely H.C. Andersen). There is a bit of awkward silence when this gorgeous middle section of the aria ends (this is where the film's cut happens). In the opera, it continues: Hoffman slowly recovers his senses and completes the tale, and the alcohol is brought on.

So it seems we are still missing this cut, the Cockerel cut, and the Muse cut. All of which survive musically on the soundtrack recording? Is there an online source for obtaining said recording?

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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#111 Post by ABaglivi » Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:32 pm

Teddyleevin: The original soundtrack was issued on three London LPs. The best CD transfer is on the Pearl label obtainable from Amazon for around $15. The SOMM transfer is of poor quality. The Kleinzach Cut and the Cockerel Cut can be heard on the recording. There is no evidence either on the soundtrack or in the complete print that the shot of the Muse was ever included. The original booklet that came with the London LPs shows the still and mentions the Muse in the plot synopsis, but again, I have never seen or heard any evidence that it was in the final cut. Further, Powell makes no reference to it in his memo.

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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#112 Post by jsteffe » Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:23 pm

david hare wrote:And the restoration, once again a complete labor of love by all concerned, is the most extraordinary three strip to 4K to disc I have ever seen.
Now that's an endorsement! I going to order it right now...

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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#113 Post by manicsounds » Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:15 am


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tenia
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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#114 Post by tenia » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:17 pm

I'm surprised by the SC BD runtime : the BBFC wrote 127m 38s.

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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#115 Post by EddieLarkin » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:45 pm

They were probably sent a PAL DVD (which would be sped up to around that time).

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tenia
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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#116 Post by tenia » Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:34 pm

I thought it might be something like that but weren't sure what the habits are for BBFC submission.

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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#117 Post by manicsounds » Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:23 pm

david hare wrote: Manic, the quoted 134.06 above for the BD is wrong again. It's 133.07 - time code begins with the London Films Tower image logo, not with the Canal logo.
134:06 is the runtime on the Blu-ray with the Studio Canal logo, and 133:07 without? The Criterion DVD timecode is with the Criterion logo at the start.

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manicsounds
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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#118 Post by manicsounds » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:34 am

Got it. I will have that DVDCompare page updated with the correct runtime.

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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#119 Post by jsteffe » Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:35 pm

DVD Beaver offers some gorgeous frame captures from the Blu-ray. I almost started tearing up just seeing the extraordinary color and visual imagination on display. I truly can't wait to revisit this film in the new restoration!

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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#120 Post by RossyG » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:42 pm

david hare wrote:As I said the Canal BD time code for the movie does not start with the Canal logo (which is a separate file in the BDMV folder) it starts at 0.00 on London Films opening shot logo, running out to 133.07.
For the record, I have the iTunes(UK) HD download and that runs for the exact same time, ie. 133 minutes.

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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#121 Post by Magic Hate Ball » Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:37 pm

Had a chance to see the restoration at our local Cinerama, and it was absolutely stunning, absolutely one of the best Technicolor restorations I've ever seen. It was so sharp I almost felt like I could go up to the screen and pluck the grains out with a pair of tweezers. I still have my issues with the opera (the middle section of the Antonia sequence is like Nyquil for me) and the translation but god, talk about a must-buy.

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Re:

#122 Post by jsteffe » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:24 am

I just saw the UK Blu-ray tonight on an excellent projection system (not mine) and the new restoration is beyond stunning. In many ways I agree with David Hare's assessment of the film and in particular think that the choice of English language libretto and the unmagnetic male lead keep it from really taking flight. Listen to Robert Rounseville, and then listen to Placido Domingo sing the same arias! The one advantage to singing in English is that you don't have to follow subtitles while watching the film and can just focus on the visual design. Perhaps that outweighs the disadvantages... I'm not sure. Ultimately, the production design and direction are so captivating that I still love the film anyway and even liked the Antonia a bit better this time around.

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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#123 Post by diamonds » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:10 pm

A few questions about this film as it's one of the few major P&P films I've yet to see. Is a Criterion release of this out of the question? I ask because of all the other incredible Blu-ray releases of the Archers' films that Criterion has. Also, Beaver lists the Studio Canal disc as region B, but Wikipedia seems to suggest that there's U.S. release as well. Different disc, or is the Wikipedia entry an error?

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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#124 Post by swo17 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:41 pm

I believe the word a couple years ago was that Criterion would be releasing the Film Foundation's restoration, but no news since then.

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Re: 317 The Tales of Hoffmann

#125 Post by Ribs » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:11 pm

This is probably in the same situation as Z or the War Trilogy; Criterion's got the HD remaster, it's releasable, but they just don't want to do it at this point for whatever reason.

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