1007 Until the End of the World

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whaleallright
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#26 Post by whaleallright » Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:06 pm

it really feels like (and kind of proved to be) the precise moment that Wenders jumped the shark. It’s astonishing how good nearly everything he made up until this point was, and how it suddenly all went downhill with this film
I can't speak to the quality of this film, since I haven't seen it since 1991(!) and then only in the theatrical version. But like many I have long been a big fan of its soundtrack and it was important to me as one of the first out-and-out "art films" I saw on my own in the theater (the soundtrack was what drew me in, at age 13). Although what I'm about to write may make it seem otherwise, I have to admire the sheer ambition of the project.

That said, my strong feeling is that Wenders began to lose his way almost as soon as he left Germany for Los Angeles. The State of Things, kind of the fulcrum, is in many ways an extraordinary film, but its meditations on filmmaking sometimes seem rote and already arthouse clichés—though it would have been hard to imagine, in the early 1980s, just how far up his own ass Wenders would follow that cliché in the next three decades. (One wonders if the "shark-jumping" moment may have been Hammett, but since we can't see Wenders's proper version of that film, there's little way to know.) Both Paris, Texas and Wings of Desire are gorgeous and frequently touching—but they have much of the pretension and self-seriousness that would make his later fiction films almost or actually unwatchable, and compared to the films that came before they feel overly rhetorical to me. When his films start to accrete around a thesis, as in the print-shop sequence in the otherwise almost flawless Kings of the Road, they grind to halt. The later films are overloaded with "meaning" and never even get in gear.

On an unrelated note: one thing that Until the End of the World gets wrong, in a way that's deeply moving and sad today, is that it imagines a democratic China where there are official monuments to the victims of the Tianenmen massacre.

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hearthesilence
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#27 Post by hearthesilence » Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:18 pm

whaleallright wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:06 pm
That said, my strong feeling is that Wenders began to lose his way almost as soon as he left Germany for Los Angeles.
Michael Atkinson made a similar argument in the Village Voice:
Michael Atkinson wrote:We’ve all done it—killed an afternoon drinking in a pleasantly grungy roadhouse somewhere, boozily enjoying the illusion of having fallen off the grid, playing semi-forgotten blues songs on an outdated jukebox and saying to oneself, see, I should capture this feeling, this should be a movie. Sobered up, we don’t make that movie, but Wim Wenders does. Having begun as the most austerely hip of the German New Wavers, Wenders quickly became besotted with American cliché culture, from trench-coat noir and road-movie outlawry to rockabilly and post-western macho-ness, all of it commonly orchestrated with a whiskeyhead’s dreary notion of cool and lousy sense of direction. In the last quarter-century, he blazed with propulsive originality twice—in 1984’s Paris, Texas, which played to all of Wenders’s touristy weaknesses and still emerged as a cohesive miracle, and Wings of Desire (1987), a sui generis, all-German masterpiece he has tried and failed to regenerate since. But otherwise, Wenders has been lost in his funhouse...

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domino harvey
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#28 Post by domino harvey » Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:20 pm

Land of Plenty is a masterpiece and I will continue to die alone on that hill

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knives
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#29 Post by knives » Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:51 pm

Was about to say, not as strongly, I find the claims of a geographic decline to not be as severe as many make out. His doc work continued to be excellent and his narrative work while more uneven was also often more experimental so ambition seems balanced with success.

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zedz
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#30 Post by zedz » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:59 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:01 am
I thought the world collectively agreed to pretend Faraway, So Close! never happened
It's not by any stretch a good film, but I think it's better than Until the End of the World!

Oh, and to Knives' point, I'm afraid I find Wenders a rather dreary and mediocre documentarist who sometimes happens to stumble across good subjects. I feel like anybody good have made a good film out of the Buena Vista Social Club, and while the records of the dances in Pina are lovely, the testimonials that surround them are rather vapid. It seems like he picks subjects he already loves or admires, and then films them with idolatry rather than curiosity.
Last edited by zedz on Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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soundchaser
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#31 Post by soundchaser » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:04 pm

zedz wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:59 pm
domino harvey wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:01 am
I thought the world collectively agreed to pretend Faraway, So Close! never happened
It's not by any stretch a good film, but I think it's better than Until the End of the World!
It's a fascinatingly bizarre film, even when it (frequently) doesn't work. I think the biggest thing hampering it is its totally incoherent ending, which actually made me think the copy I had was missing a scene.

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zedz
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#32 Post by zedz » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:10 pm

soundchaser wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:04 pm
zedz wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:59 pm
domino harvey wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:01 am
I thought the world collectively agreed to pretend Faraway, So Close! never happened
It's not by any stretch a good film, but I think it's better than Until the End of the World!
It's a fascinatingly bizarre film, even when it (frequently) doesn't work. I think the biggest thing hampering it is its totally incoherent ending, which actually made me think the copy I had was missing a scene.
I can also understand it as a necessary answer film after the wall came down, since Wings of Desire was a mediation on a divided Germany, and I find it interesting to see how Wenders responded to that unexpected stimulus.

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knives
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#33 Post by knives » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:46 pm

zedz wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:59 pm
domino harvey wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:01 am
I thought the world collectively agreed to pretend Faraway, So Close! never happened
It's not by any stretch a good film, but I think it's better than Until the End of the World!

Oh, and to Knives' point, I'm afraid I find Wenders a rather dreary and mediocre documentarist who sometimes happens to stumble across good subjects. I feel like anybody good have made a good film out of the Buena Vista Social Club, and while the records of the dances in Pina are lovely, the testimonials that surround them are rather vapid. It seems like he picks subjects he already loves or admires, and then films them with idolatry rather than curiosity.
I don't necessarily disagree with this.

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dda1996a
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#34 Post by dda1996a » Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:02 pm

Salt of the Earth was decent enough, but does agree with your diagnosis as well. It's rather sad to see Wenders completely fail in both formats; at least Herzog manages some interesting documentaries nowadays, even when his fiction fails

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therewillbeblus
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#35 Post by therewillbeblus » Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:55 am

domino harvey wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:20 pm
Land of Plenty is a masterpiece and I will continue to die alone on that hill
I probably don’t love it quite as much as you do but I think it’s a great film and will join you on that hill. There’s a lot to admire but Wenders has a knack for a rare kind of authentic engagement between characters that embody real people more than most in films due to his comfort with restraint and willingness to explore complexity. Doing this post-9/11 and presenting opposing perspectives on the deeper effects on individuals around politics of war without reverting focus to the conflict, instead choosing the process by which two people from different social contexts are capable of sharing and opening themselves to emotional influence by another human is its own kind of journey, a mini road film of the soul (within an actual road movie). It is incredibly hopeful and accurate in extending the simple idea that people can become vulnerable and take that leap of faith towards trust not through persuasion or alteration of belief, but kindness, respect, and most importantly, validation for the dignity of the other.

In a way this is another example of Wenders altering his methodology of his conceptualization of what a ‘road film’ is, but in a more layered, interesting and affecting theoretical avenue, and definitely his most successful attempt since the 80s. Though I think he needed to go big with Until the End of the World to test the application of this interest in unique ways first before scaling back and finding that humility again that lets his films breathe like this one.

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whaleallright
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#36 Post by whaleallright » Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:04 am

Waiting for someone to defend The Million Dollar Hotel....

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colinr0380
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#37 Post by colinr0380 » Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:23 am

Maybe not that particular film, but I would really love to see Criterion tackle The End of Violence. I often think that if you combine the 'dated futurism' aspects of Until the End of the World with the surveillance paranoia portrait of L.A. aspects of The End of Violence you would end up with something akin to Richard Kelly's Southland Tales!

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hearthesilence
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#38 Post by hearthesilence » Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:29 pm

whaleallright wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:04 am
Waiting for someone to defend The Million Dollar Hotel....
U2 recorded a not-bad track for it.

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dda1996a
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#39 Post by dda1996a » Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:48 am

colinr0380 wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:23 am
Maybe not that particular film, but I would really love to see Criterion tackle The End of Violence. I often think that if you combine the 'dated futurism' aspects of Until the End of the World with the surveillance paranoia portrait of L.A. aspects of The End of Violence you would end up with something akin to Richard Kelly's Southland Tales!
Haven't seen any of them yet, but does anyone want something akin to Southland Tales?

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knives
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#40 Post by knives » Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:52 am

Yes.

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FrauBlucher
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#41 Post by FrauBlucher » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:18 pm


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schellenbergk
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#42 Post by schellenbergk » Thu Dec 26, 2019 11:08 am

Well, I've been a fan of the soundtrack for years, and I love the backstory of the film (the director heroically saving his vision from the evil distributors who want a shorter version). But having sat through part 1, I can't seem to bring myself to pop in part 2. It looks and sounds beautiful, but the film itself just. doesn't. make. sense. It shifts from country to country arbitrarily, and entire sequences come out of nowhere (the Japan sequence? Hello? I felt prepared dramatically and intellectually for this). Sudden illogical shifts (to San Fran? Why?).


I really wanted to like this... but I just can't go on. . .

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zedz
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#43 Post by zedz » Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:03 pm

For what it’s worth, part two is nothing like that, and has none of those flaws. Instead, it has a whole new bunch of flaws. I’ve never met anybody who thinks it’s the better half of the film, but maybe you’ll be the first!

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soundchaser
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#44 Post by soundchaser » Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:10 pm

I think it’s the more *interesting* part of the film, even if both are deeply flawed — does that count?

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therewillbeblus
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#45 Post by therewillbeblus » Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:18 am

zedz wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:03 pm
For what it’s worth, part two is nothing like that, and has none of those flaws. Instead, it has a whole new bunch of flaws. I’ve never met anybody who thinks it’s the better half of the film, but maybe you’ll be the first!
This is how I feel about it, and you might as well give it a shot especially since nobody travels to many new places unnecessarily (they just stay put unnecessarily) so maybe you actually will prefer it. I hope you like “world” music a lot though

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domino harvey
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#46 Post by domino harvey » Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:27 am

So, just to recap, someone only watched half of a movie and complained that it didn’t make sense?

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jsteffe
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#47 Post by jsteffe » Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:12 am

I'd say that if a 5 hour film doesn't start to cohere after 2+ hours, it's ok to complain and/or give up. I didn't find UNTIL THE END OF THE WORLD difficult to follow, and I'm not entirely sorry that I watched it, though I would never recommend it to anyone. There are so many more engaging long films out there! HEAVEN'S GATE, A BRIGHTER SUMMER DAY and SATANTANGO all come to mind...

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John Cope
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#48 Post by John Cope » Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:32 am

And for my part, I love all 5 hours unreservedly. But I also loved it in its truncated state, too.

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Aunt Peg
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#49 Post by Aunt Peg » Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:10 am

I didn't care for the 1991 release of this but given its history was prepared to watch the 5 hour Wim Wenders version. Whilst the first part still doesn't work for me the second part was much more satisfactory. Still a very flawed film but far more interesting at 5 hours and the 1991 cut and so superior to most of the twaddle Wenders has been putting out this century, except for his outstanding documentary work.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: 1007 Until the End of the World

#50 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:39 pm

Revisiting this, I was less enamored with the first half, which blew me away in theatres, and was much more aware of (and captivated with) the banality and apathy of the fleeting chase. It's still beautiful eye candy, and interesting for different reasons: because all the striking imagery and vicious magnitude of the adventures are inversely muted by the characters' ennui, creating a raw detachment between expectation (of cinema, of fantasies, of dreams?) and reality. The film doesn't linger in any location for long enough to bask in topographical porn, and so the impermanent nature of travel is reduced to this facade of finite escapism. Claire experiences this, as we hear from narration and see ourselves loud and clear, a citizen of the world who is returning to home base, just as bored and indifferent to the world as I imagine she was when she set out on her 'adventures.' The intent of a geographical cure isn't known or important, but Claire's attempts at finding herself in any location, or accessing herself through accessing diverse spaces or cultures, are failures because she chooses to externalize her aims rather than internalizing them. All the scenery and adventures in the world won't solve the problem that is Claire.

The same goes for Hurt's Sam, who is caught up in a man-on-the-run scenario on a mission to record, rather than live, life. This is a film about people who are either afraid or numb to freedom from themselves to engage in the present moment. Claire acts as though she practices as unrestrained mindfulness, but she is always looking, moving, going somewhere; never 'present.' These characters' inability to meditate in place casts a shadow of dullness on our interpretation of their world, perhaps a result of the global decay of social and physical self-destruction projected onto them- or maybe the state of the world is as it is because of how human beings have projected their own self-destruction onto it, facilitating cosmic destruction. Claire is pining for Sam, obsessed with a future with him, even when together - they don't "share" moments, only ideas and the vague concept of future-oriented objectives. When they actually meet their destination, in the film's still-painfully-bloated second half, the focus turns to another escapist mission, though one that is physically static while the previous attempts were only mentally static. They cannot remain in the present, together or alone, and so they
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become addicted to watching their own dreams, self-absorbed perhaps, but definitively evasive. The allegory to drug addiction is obvious, but this fits with the self-medication hypothesis of addiction- which can be subscribed to media addiction or other self-distancing practices as well- in that dysphoric states are so strong and unmanageable that a person avoids them at all costs. These mental states often manifest from sitting still in the moment with one's own thoughts and feelings. The characters cannot bear to do this, as they have not grown into themselves in a social context that encourages strategy-development in this domain and thus have identities that are reduced to faux-goals of hollow aims.
The commentary on our global evolution of cultural melting, and the stunting effects on individuals' existential muscles, is powerful in a subversive way, by prohibiting us from passively enjoying a film that should be joyfully escapist into one that is neither joyous or escapist, and reflectively about the incapacity to enjoy or escape. The success of Wenders' earlier road movies comes from an acceptance of the idea of physical travel as futile in absolving an individual of their ennui in expected, conscious, safely externalized ways of accruing a measured alleviation of dysphoria; instead providing experiences that allow for development to occur unexpectedly and unconsciously through internalized travel via exposure to the banal, which acts as a reflective tool to force self-awareness. His films don't pretend that these trips solve existential crises, but that they do serve as new tools to knit the very same fabric of one's life. This film does something similar, though we are left at the end with
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an almost uncomfortably unevolved state of the central characters to the naked eye, which is very much the point. Claire is continuing on her aimless path, now a temp astronaut, and Sam has returned to his family who have left him. And yet, Claire has friends who call in to wish her happy birthday, and she is significantly stuck in a static space (in space..), searching for change but allowing herself to remain in one place, no longer afraid to cope with sitting in her own skin- or if so, at least willing to, and capable of, facing the challenge. Sam has lost his family, but his own self-destructiveness in living his life for others' goals and dreams has ended, and one must hope that now that he has been stripped of all outlets to distract he may finally begin to live for himself.
One has to use their imagination here, but in an ironic maneuver the film has been one giant front for the journey that is yet to come. We have experienced a five-hour wildly eccentric colorful palette of adventure that has actually been a vapid minute chapter in the continuous journeys of these characters' lives, and one that -despite all the physical moving- has been all for igniting a spark that kicks off whatever exceptionally pronounced growth and change will happen next. Though of course, if we take the outlook that initiating change is the most difficult part of the process, we have witnessed something extraordinary-just against the grain of our expectations. So, undoubtedly, a Wenders film.

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