70 The Last Temptation of Christ

Discuss releases by Criterion and the films on them. Threads may contain spoilers!
Message
Author
User avatar
dwk
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:10 pm

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#26 Post by dwk » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:47 pm

Robert Harris at HTF wrote:With an image derived from an interpositive, and audio via DTS-HD Master, this new release from Criterion seems as close to perfect for Blu-ray as one might wish. Might it have looked better with an image harvested from the original camera negative, as opposed to one generation away?

Doubtful.

The Last Temptation of Christ is an important film, presented beautifully on Blu-ray.

User avatar
The Narrator Returns
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:35 pm

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#27 Post by The Narrator Returns » Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:46 am

Blu-Ray.com

Rest assured, it does look good.

24fpssean
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:33 pm

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#28 Post by 24fpssean » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:54 am

Rest assured it DOES NOT look good. 59 minutes into the film the banding and macro-blocking around Satan's pillar of fire is god awful. How anyone can think that this is normal or acceptable is beyond reason. Once again, poor Criterion have been handed an old HD master (12 years old) that was good enough for standard def but absolutely not good enough for high def. Is it any wonder Universal are releasing the DVD themselves and letting Criterion take the heat for the wretched Blu-ray?

Proof that this is the same master used for Criterion's 2000 DVD? The end titles are darkened to a tawny gold. The original end titles have been compromised, and please if you never saw the film on its first run back in 1988 keep reading: When Jesus dies at the end (spoiler!) the film actually is "burned" off of the screen by the power of God, leaving the audience (that's us) looking at a blank white screen upon which bright white end titles pop. This has never been reproduced on home video - VHS and DVD versions have always darkened the end titles to a tawny gold, it actually darkens before your very eyes right before the titles begin to pop on and off. High Def should be able to reproduce the original integrity of the end titles but no, an old master was used and again we have the titles timed down, thus ruining Scorsese's original intent. That Scorsese, a man how professes to live for film integrity and preservation, should let this pass is disheartening.

Monday morning, I will take this disc into work and QC it on our professional equipment to discover whether or not this issue is system sensitive, but I can tell you now from my experience that it will not help. I did the same thing with Criterion's release of Howards End, a Blu-ray so appalling that out of seventeen Amazon reviews, fifteen complained how terrible it was. Doubtless I will once again be ostracized for suggesting that Criterion are capable of failure. Unfortunately for them, they are merely harvesting from the lousy source material Universal have supplied.

User avatar
hearthesilence
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:22 am
Location: NYC

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#29 Post by hearthesilence » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:40 pm

I'm not sure if this could count as further proof, but the credited names involved in the transfer are exactly the same (not just Ballhaus and Schoonmaker, those names are surprising):
Telecine supervisors: Michael Ballhaus, Maria Palazzola, Thelma Schoonmaker.
Telecine colorist: Gregg Garvin/Modern Videofilm, Los Angeles; Ron Stetler/The Tape House, New York.
5.1 surround remix by: Skip Lievsay/C5, New York.
BUT, it's worth noting that the credits now mention things that weren't around in 2000, like Image System's Phoenix:
Supervised and approved by cinematographer Michael Ballhaus and editor Thelma Schoonmaker, this high-definition digital transfer was created on a Spirit Datacine from a 35mm interpositive. Thousands of instances of dirt, debris, scratches, splices, warps, jitter, and flicker were manually removed using MTI's DRS, Pixel Farm's PFClean, and Image System's Phoenix.
Is it possible they used the original HD transfer and tweaked it with some of their current restoration systems?

24fpssean
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:33 pm

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#30 Post by 24fpssean » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:49 pm

Yes, very possible. That's what they did with Howards End. You can literally see the digital floor. There is no further they can go, no deeper. I don't blame Criterion as I used to, they are merely working with what they are given. It makes sense that they wouldn't call in Ballhaus and Schoonmaker for another pass at the IP because that would be expensive. I know for certain Howards End was a seven or eight year old master. Criterion aren't Warners, who do new HD scans every couple of years or so on their big titles. This is very disappointing, but worse is that no one will do anything about it. Everyone thinks it's a stunning transfer...

User avatar
cdnchris
Site Admin
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:45 pm
Location: Washington
Contact:

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#31 Post by cdnchris » Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:26 pm

I was a little underwhelmed when I first went through it but happy it still offered a big improvement over the DVD (which had some weird shimmering effects, halos, and other artifacts) which I'm thinking distracted me. Originally I noticed noise in darker sequences like this one:
Image
and some blocking on close-ups (I couldn't capture it for the life of me, I think you need the movement to notice, but this close-up was particularly bad in the film)
Image
but I was still generally happy with it initially. Watching it again I'm even less impressed, noticing more problems with it (like the flames you mentioned.) The one thing that bugged me most was how flat it looked, and how murky the finer details are. I attributed it to how it was shot but now I'm thinking it's the limitations of an older transfer. I still think it looks way better than the DVD, though, even if that's just because it's a souped up version of the same transfer.

24fpssean
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:33 pm

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#32 Post by 24fpssean » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:12 pm

It definitely is sharper than the DVD, but there is ends, at least for me. It does look too flat and milky. It literally looks like watching a faded print of the film, except of course for the horrible banding and macro-blocking, which does not happen in film. There is no depth to the image. Thanks for posting the screen caps! There was a shot or two in Howards End (25 minutes into the film when Jackie Bast is on the bed) that is dark and has a digital grid, a soft white grid, moving diagonally up the screen like a game of Tetris, that for some reason some viewers saw and others did not. It could be the same with the banding around Satan's flame but I don't think so. Are we just conditioned to accept less now? Like I said, I worked at Cineplex Universal when the film was released in '88 (and was there when 125,000 protested on a hot August day!) and I remember vividly what the film looked like; it absolutely did not look like a faded IP. And the end credits where white on an off white screen, not the bile yellow they have been darkened to on home video.

24fpssean
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:33 pm

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#33 Post by 24fpssean » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:15 pm

Played the disc on a friend's system (different equipment than mine) and the results were the same. His jaw dropped at the blocking and banding and he despaired that now he couldn't buy a disc of one of his favorite films. I've decided to keep my 2000 DVD of the film because standard def limitations are vastly preferable to this mess of digital inadequacy.

And for the record, watched Monty Python and the Holy Grail on BD and Sony was able to handle the blank white film screen at the end when the film breaks, so what is wrong with Universal/Criterion that they just couldn't do a new scan? Robert Harris gives the disc a glowing 5/5 for video and audio. What the bloody ---- is wrong with him? He also gushed over Howards End and that disc we also tested on different equipment and the white digital grid was still there. Are people watching these things with all the lights on, or while they are texting, or outside in broad daylight, that they can't see these problems. If we pay higher prices for a Criterion Blu-ray, we want the movie to resemble what it looked like theatrically. This charade of home video reviews and reviewers has got to stop. Most of these guys have never seen these films projected on the big screen off of 35mm. That does make a difference. Absolutely.

Will there be a recall of this disc? No, because nobody out there seems to remember what it looked like theatrically. Banding and blocking are unacceptable, especially if we are paying higher prices for what is supposed to be a better treatment of a film on Blu-ray. If Mr. Harris has some kind of filtering device that is making this disc and Howards End viewable, I would like to know what that is. But I think the filtering is happening deeper than that.

gotglint
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:01 am

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#34 Post by gotglint » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:07 am

24fpssean, thanks so much for bringing these possible problems with the bluray up. i was tempted to get it since i have an affinity for scorsese and have the original dvd.

unfortunately i don't have the bluray to investigate myself. i did email gary @ the beav, and he said he also did not investigate that deeply, which is also unfortunate because i tend to trust his reviews. might have to be a bit pickier now on...

anyways, i know it's hard to be the one dissenter, esp when it comes to Criterion. they have almost an Apple like reputation. so wanted to chime in with some moral support! :) also thanks to cdnchris for looking into the issues raised.

im looking forward to see what robert harris discovers on his second look!

24fpssean
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:33 pm

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#35 Post by 24fpssean » Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:09 pm

Thanks, gotglint. I haven't looked at my post on Hometheaterforum, a site I am finished with because it seems to be made up of out of work, stay at home lickspittles who believe Criterion is infallible and that Robert Harris is a deity of some sort. I've no doubts about the man's abilities as a film restorer (many years past, of course) but the way I was attacked, even by himself, about my complaints about the wretched Howards End BD and the odd truncated title on The Seventh Seal (oddly truncated to "sejunde Inseglet" rather than "det sejunde Inseglet" on the main title sequence on BD) was just juvenile. No one, NO ONE, made any comments about the end titles of the Last Temptation Blu-ray being altered. It clearly does not matter to these guys that the film they are watching on BD is not the same as it would be theatrically. All they talk about is where the best Blu-ray deals are, then review discs in the shadow of Harris' review mimicking all of his glowing terms.

The whole point of a website devoted to the home theater experience is to get it right, not to wallow in agreeing with someone who restored a film over twenty years ago (a restoration no longer relevant due to advances in digital technology). If we consumers are paying higher prices for Blu-rays, especially from Criterion who has the reputation of supplying the best possible version, then we expect to get our moneys worth and not be lied to. The Last Temptation of Christ uses a twelve year old HD master that was created for the DVD (Standard Def) release. Period. Do not lie to us or even try to lead us to believe that this is a new transfer. It is not. And I defy anyone, Ballhaus himself, to prove to me that they just sat down and supervised a new scan of this great film when the image, the blocking, the banding, is so bad that people here at work gaped when I played it for them on our professional equipment.

I did get the DVD that Universal just released (yes, pouring more money into their pockets) and it is scrubbed clean and washed out. Looks in some shots like it was transferred from digibeta. Universal, as they did with Out of Africa, will probably do a proper scan in another year and then release the whole thing again, to gouge us once more.

Sorry to tirade about this so. I'm using this site to vent, apparently. I feel passionately about this, though. Mr. Harris and I agreed only once on Hometheaterforum and that was about the standards issue; standard absolutely must be set when harvesting and transferring these classic films to Blu-ray. What is disheartening is to have someone of that reputation look past the god awful compression issues of a Blu-ray and then join the bullying mother's-basement-dwellers in vilifying those of us who do not waver in our integrity.

User avatar
Gregory
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:07 pm

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#36 Post by Gregory » Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:43 pm

Above, you wrote
I don't blame Criterion as I used to, they are merely working with what they are given.
So now you've changed your mind back again and you do blame them?
Where did they lie or lead us to believe this is a brand new transfer?

I picked this up for $15 from DD (and am still waiting to receive it), which was about $12 less than the lowest available price which I paid when the DVD came out, and that helped persuade me to upgrade. When I revisit this film I look forward to a better picture than the DVD, but I certainly don't expect to be stunned, given that Criterion's options were apparently very limited.

I often do not agree with Harris and I don't read the forum there. Whenever there are an array of reviews on different sites it's pretty normal for some to overpraise a transfer or completely overlook faults. Some of the reviews of the new blu-ray were certainly mixed or outright critical. This one probably had the most negative assessment of the picture quality of those I read. It's certainly not true that "everyone thinks it's a stunning transfer," but what can one do under the circumstances, pragmatically speaking?

User avatar
dwk
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:10 pm

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#37 Post by dwk » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:46 pm

Harris posted the following about the "pillar of fire" issue
I'm told that the master us an early 1080p transfer. The sequence in question will be found in all video material, as it is part of the scanned IP. Apparently some optical anomalies going on here, but it's part of the film. Not pretty. But part of the film.

24fpssean
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:33 pm

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#38 Post by 24fpssean » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:54 pm

That's not "part of the film". Film doesn't do that. What the hell is he talking about?? I have never ever seen banding in film and that banding was not there when I saw the film theatrically. Anyone with a trained eye can tell the difference between film and video and the banding is video generated. There is no such thing as banding and macro-blocking in film. Is he trying to save face about his review or just bonkers??

I don't blame them for the master but I blame them for printing a lie on the back of their product. Anyone would be able to discern the different between the two when reading my post. And one can barrage Criterion and/or Universal with complaints, or just not buy the product. It is unwatchable and how anyone can turn off seeing these anomalies is beyond me. It destroys the enjoyment of the film.

When buying a new release 12 years after it was originally released on home video, and it claims to be a HD master supervised and approved by the filmmakers, one would be led to believe that it has been updated, that some effort would be made to create a new element. Therefore the announcement on the back of the Criterion Blu-ray is misleading. Since they have not said "sourced from a 12 year old HD master", they have lied and led consumers to believe the source has been updated.

User avatar
domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#39 Post by domino harvey » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:07 pm

Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen

24fpssean
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:33 pm

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#40 Post by 24fpssean » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:15 pm

So I am a little harsh about the situation. Well, whatever. Everyone have fun with your banding and blocking. Since I can't watch it, I'll get my disc refunded. Like I said, perhaps one day Universal will release it correctly. In the meantime, I have to hunt down another transfer to bitch about...!

But I do like Criterion and/or Harris' choice of words. "Earlier master" is used, not "twelve year old master". Sigh...

User avatar
knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#41 Post by knives » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:20 pm

Do you just want us to let you post 24 times in a row?

24fpssean
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:33 pm

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#42 Post by 24fpssean » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:23 pm

That's three times. 24 is an exaggeration. I'm posting now.

User avatar
matrixschmatrix
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 11:26 pm

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#43 Post by matrixschmatrix » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:28 pm

You posted six times running with one Dom joke in between (though your earlier run has now been collapsed) and you probably shouldn't complain about others exaggerating when part of your posting marathon was accusing the blu of being 'unwatchable', which is patently absurd.

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#44 Post by tenia » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:36 am

matrixschmatrix wrote:You probably shouldn't complain about others exaggerating when part of your posting marathon was accusing the blu of being 'unwatchable', which is patently absurd.
+1. There are quite "unwatchable" BDs on the market (check the blu-ray.com review with 1 out of 5 on PQ). There are patently upscaled SD transfers (The Next Doctor episode from Doctor Who, and lots of FUNimation BDs). There are clear old masters used again and again (being Some Like It Hot, Bullitt and others big studios releases).

I think that most people will agree that The Last Temptation BD is very much ahead of all these cases.

User avatar
ShellOilJunior
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:17 am

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#45 Post by ShellOilJunior » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:17 pm

I can rest assured. It looks good.

User avatar
dwk
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:10 pm

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#46 Post by dwk » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:07 pm


24fpssean
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:33 pm

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#47 Post by 24fpssean » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:12 pm

Exactly. It looks like shit. And none of this remedies the fact that the end titles are not as they were theatrically. So you can all just watch this BD in blissful ignorance, imagining that you are watching an accurate reproduction of the film when if fact the darkening of the end titles alone make this disc a joke. I leave you to your orgy of compression issues. Have fun!

User avatar
Gregory
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:07 pm

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#48 Post by Gregory » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:21 pm

I watched the blu-ray on a 104" screen, completely willing to be critical of the transfer. I noticed the banding around the fire as mentioned before but nowhere else. This is the best they were able to do, and it was a huge improvement over the DVD.
Can't say I really care enough to rant post-release about end titles not looking the same as they were theatrically, so I guess that proves the "blissful ignorance" point. Oh no, darkened end titles! Criterion typically has good reasons for why they present things the way they do.

User avatar
cdnchris
Site Admin
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:45 pm
Location: Washington
Contact:

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#49 Post by cdnchris » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:06 pm

I honestly think this title could look a lot worse and treating it like it's the absolute worst thing that could have happened is a little ridiculous. Universal could have actually released it and they would have scrubbed it to hell and back.

Of course, having said that, this could also look a hell of a lot better. Forgetting compression issues and other digital faux pas I think it's still pretty murky.

User avatar
movielocke
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:44 am

Re: 70 The Last Temptation of Christ

#50 Post by movielocke » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:21 pm

It's a shame they didn't start over with a new 4k telecine from the o-neg on a Spirit Datacine with work done at 2k supervised/colored by Michael Ballhaus and Scorsese. Instead, Universal sent them a decade old 1080p tape and Criterion called it a day.

It's still a hell of a lot better than the DVD.

Post Reply